Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by Spirit Tree » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:45 am

WolfKing wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:45 pm
This is a really intense and polarizing argument. Considering that Yoshi apparently got inspiration from politics from these days, perhaps he kind of wanted this kind of an reception from us fans.

In my opinion i don't know who is the "real leader" since both Orion and Sirius had questionable morals in TLW and it made it difficult for me to chose which one was the "right one".

I think it's unfair to out Sirius as the one who was wrong and had terrible morals. I fully admit those statements about that the dogs and humans intruded Akakabuto's territory during the start, and that they (dogs) are the real evil ones etc. and insensitive words about fallen comrades were cringeworthy and i did not agree with that at all since it was such a mind screw and absolutely abysmal things to say. But outing him as a villain was not right in my opinion despite him betraying Ou for his morals. I mean he never planned to kill anyone or make Monsoon attack Ou as revenge for being exiled.

Near the end, he also saved Orion from being killed, which while not totally impressive or enough to make someone change their opinion on him, it showed that he really cared about his family after all and reminded us that he never wanted anyone to die.


Orion certainly never betrayed anyone, which is great. He has a great sense of justice and really cares about his friends and family. But he is the one who insisted that they must kill Monsoon (for obvious reasons though) was a hothead who aggressively yelled at others, assaulted Sirius with a Bamboo stick etc, and led the raid against Monsoon, while exclaiming excitedly "YAHOO!" which in my opinion took away the "battle for justice" feel and changed it into a sort of an "psychopath adventure" or "Bloodlust". He's also motivated by revenge which Unsai stated as a bad thing. I'm still not outing him as a villain either.

Just like Sirius, near the end he shows his love for his friends family by telling others to save Sirius and prioritize him over himself and telling them to make him the leader of Ou.

Now in GDN he has changed a lot, and has flaws like usually but hopefully he develops into a great leader now that Yoshi sacrificed Sirius for his character developments sake. I just wish Yoshi will make Sirius will come and reconcile with Orion so that the broken bond can be fully fixed and make peace at last.


My point is that both Orion and Sirius did equal amount of mistakes and their ideals and actions were questionable at best, and i think that singling out either one of them as the villain or the "true leader or hero" or the one with "right ideals" is just not right. It's a complicated situation. Yoshi just hasn't executed it well enough which makes it even more complicated.
Great post, dude! It sounds similar to the one post that I made back in early January.

And I’m very sorry. It just makes me think that only Orion gets criticized when Sirius should also be criticized. I’m aware that Orion was a hotheaded madman in TLW and did a lot of wrong things before GDN. Like I said back in January, Orion is not the only one who deserves blame for all of his wrongdoings. Sirius deserves blame for all of his wrongdoings, also.

And I’m not calling Sirius a villain. Even though I’ve been saying that he acted or looked like a villain, I don’t mean to call him a villain. Since you brought up the part where Sirius saves Orion from getting stomped, now I’m thinking that he still loved his brother and family and friends so much. Orion probably still loves his brother because he showed it near the end of TLW and has shown it in GDN. But we can’t ignore all of the wrong things that both brothers did in TLW.

However, I really don’t want Yoshi to turn Orion into a villain because of this “large demon” thing and what Rigel said about Orion becoming an “uncontrollable monster.” It would ruin Orion. It would be too cruel. Sure, Orion could be full of rage if he knows that Weed’s life is in more danger. But Rigel could have said something better than “uncontrollable monster.” Yes, Orion is one of my favorite characters, but I’m aware of all of the wrong things that he did before GDN. And just because he threw Shuou off the cliff, it doesn’t make him a monster.

But I’m happy that Orion has been progressing on his character development to be a better character since GDN started. And I’ll be happy to see him learn to harness his dark side and light side and combine them together. That will help him be a better character and leader. I know I’ve said this many times. But I have a strong hope for it. I hope Noah will help him and guide him.

And WolfKing, have you seen my recreation of my predictions? Like you, I still hope that Orion will meet with Sirius in a dreamworld, and both brothers will reconcile. It will also be good if Sirius can admit/realize all of his wrongdoings in TLW. I mean Orion pretty much admitted his. Have a look at my recreation if you want. I’m not forcing you to do that, but it’s your choice.

You have also made a good point, WolfKing. :)
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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by JazzyJazz » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:49 am

I wanna make it clear that I wasn't saying that Rigel was bad in any way, I just found his wording to be a little weird. I also would've thought Ken and Tesshin would've filled everyone in on Orion's mental state since they've see firsthand how depressed Orion is. By saying nothing, it's no wonder Rigel thinks Orion's the same, hotheaded guy.
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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by Spirit Tree » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:14 am

JazzyJazz wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:49 am
I wanna make it clear that I wasn't saying that Rigel was bad in any way, I just found his wording to be a little weird. I also would've thought Ken and Tesshin would've filled everyone in on Orion's mental state since they've see firsthand how depressed Orion is. By saying nothing, it's no wonder Rigel thinks Orion's the same, hotheaded guy.
Good point, Jazzy! I didn’t think about that until now. Tesshin, Ken, and Toshimitsu saw how sad and depressed Orion was when they met up with him back then. Why didn’t Tesshin tell Rigel about that? All Tesshin said that Orion “seemed fine.” Why did he keep quiet about the entire situation? Really strange. Like you said, no wonder Rigel thinks that Orion’s still the same hotheaded guy. They still don’t know that Orion is trying to find growth.
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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by Knight » Tue Jun 02, 2020 3:44 am

WolfKing wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:45 pm
This is a really intense and polarizing argument.
I just wanted to say I've been following this argument pretty closely, it's really interesting to see all the different sides of this topic since there's kind of some passion here, lol. Sort of makes me wish there were more things we could have intense debates about.
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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by Digsu » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:19 am

Kaiken wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 pm
How is jumping into ravine ''going crazy''? Orion felt stressed and needed to cool himself down. He didn't endanger anyone by doing so. If he wants to, he has full rights to jump into ravine, just like anyone else.
Suddenly jumping down a cliff to "cool down" is not something stable people do. If you can't control your emotions under pressure and instead have to resort to dangerous, potentially self-harming stunts to remain calm, you are not fit to be a leader. Also, "did not endanger anyone by doing so"? Jerome nearly died trying to save him.
Kaiken wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 pm
Chibi is a bear and Orion is a bearhound, and they're currently in war with bears, so OF COURSE he should want to kill him! While it would have been very sad to see, I would have preferred if someone (preferably Maru and Sunny) actually killed Chibi, since he's their natural enemy and it makes sense for dogs to attack their enemies, especially after everything Chibi's own bloodline did to them.
Chibi had shown himself to be no threat, capable of speaking the dog language, was backed up by Rigel, and was a scared, defenseless child. Natural enemy or not, if your first instinct upon seeing a helpless child who speaks your language, even if rather clumsily, and whom your own brother is telling you is no threat is to murder it in cold blood for target practice, you clearly have self-control issues and are not fit to be a leader. Also, this was way before Chibi's relation to Akakabuto came to light, and using "they're animals, it's natural for them to act this way" is a pretty debatable argument when talking about dogs who have human intelligence.
Kaiken wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 pm
What page and volume was the Jerome one? TLW was such a mess I don't remember it very well and haven't had time to reread it yet. Either way, I'm pretty sure he did not ''almost kill'' Jerome. He must have just slightly wounded him or hit him accidentally. Jerome is not that easy to kill.
It was immediately after Orion planned to kill Chibi. All right, maybe "almost killed" was a bit of a strong way of putting it, but his reaction is still completely unreasonable. He did not wound Jerome, but that's still not an acceptable thing to do - or would you be okay if a person you were arguing with charged at you and held a knife to your throat, even if they didn't actually end up hurting you? If your response to someone trying to stop you from attacking children and/or your own allies is to physically threaten them, you're not fit to be a leader.

I also fail to see how "Jerome is not that easy to kill" excuses Orion's actions. Again, the mere act of him lunging at Jerome with what he assumed was a deadly weapon is proof that he was - and possibly still is - far too unstable to be a leader. It could have been Gin himself he was doing it to and it still wouldn't be okay; of course he wouldn't actually be able to kill him, but the fact he lost control and physically lashed out at him is in itself alarming as all hell.
Kaiken wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 pm
Back then Orion really was not fit to be the supreme leader (but he could still be good enough to be a commander), true, but he has changed a lot now. Toshimitsu did that more as precaution after Orion did wound his brother with sickle, not that Orion would actually seriously wound Sirius. He could have just cut him again (which is also no good of course), but nothing too serious.
I agree that Orion has changed a lot for the better ever since TLW ended, but we still don't know if he really is ready to be a leader. We haven't seen how he acts under immense pressure like in TLW, and if he's still susceptible to cracking under it as he was back then, then he's not one.

Also, I fail to see how "he wouldn't have seriously hurt Sirius" helps. Again, if you can't control your emotions and can't help but "just slightly" hurt the person you're speaking to because of personal hatreds, you are absolutely not fit to be a leader. Matter of fact, that's not something people in general should do and you probably need some sort of professional help if you do that (or like to jump of cliffs when stressed, or have the uncontrollable need to kill babies, or consider holding a weapon to someone's throat an acceptable conversational technique).
Kaiken wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 pm
What? There was nothing showing they didn't trust him. Choosing to rescue their comrades instead of searching for their leader which could be anywhere in the country, doesn't mean not trusting.
I don't know if this is just a personal opinion, but to me, having trust in your leader includes being confident that they won't turn into a mindless, raging beast under any conditions, and if you can't do that, then you don't trust them. They deliberately chose not to tell Orion; if they'd wanted to, they could have easily sent someone to bring a message to him while the rest went after the Aka'ari (at least in theory, of course the fact that Orion is no longer with Noah would have made it tricky in practice).
Kaiken wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 pm
Again, no evidence that they treat Orion different than Gin and Weed as leader. They treat the other two only different in a way that they are elders, but Orion is still well respected and trusted.
Is there evidence that they do respect Orion as much as Gin and Weed, though? We don't know how they reacted to Weed promoting him to leader and him ditching the entire army without telling anyone where he was going couldn't have improved their opinion of him. There's also the fact that he kept lashing out at his fellow soldiers in TLW, so he doesn't really have the most respectable track record.
Kaiken wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 pm
Orion went to find his mother. That is not wrong. And you know what Gin did shortly after being made leader himself? Exactly. He left the Ohu for 14 years.
Of course it's not wrong, but again, the problem is that he didn't tell anyone where he was going. If he'd explained himself, there'd be nothing wrong with him leaving to find Koyuki and Bella and I'm sure none of the other dogs would have minded, either - it was peacetime and it was about time someone went to pick the two up, after all. At least Gin made it clear why he was leaving and, again, the others already knew he was a capable leader, thanks to his actions during the Akakabuto and Wolf arcs.

I'm also pretty sure it's never said he was gone for all the 14 (or 13, or 15, or whatever the canon number is right now) years between GNG and GDW. In volume 12, Ken says that Gin, John, and Akame began to travel around Japan "after Akakabuto's defeat", which could mean they left very soon afterwards, but the way Smith explains the need for the body doubles in volume 3 makes it sound like Gin didn't spend all that time away, saying that "sometimes" Gin himself had to go and help handle whatever problems other dogs had. Additionally, in volume 7, Akame says that they started using the body doubles "five or six years ago", so it's highly unlikely they spent the full 15/14/13 years on the road. It's still a long time, true, but again, the dogs knew that Gin was a capable leader beforehand, unlike with Orion. Deceiving them by using the body doubles in the first place was admittedly a bit shady, but even that was ultimately another way of trying to ensure the Paradise's safety - again, in contrast, Orion literally abandoned the place and people he was supposed to lead, with not even a hint of him doing anything to ensure things don't fall apart while he's gone.



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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by Dragon » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:36 am

I really like Orion and seeing his new growth, but I wouldn't say he's a good leader, because Orion himself doesn't find himself as a good leader... He doesn't even want to be and it really sucks for him how everyone's forcing this role on him. Gin wanted to during his travels in GNG. He wanted to prove to Ben and Akame he had what it takes to lead the platoon. He worked hard and showed his justice while still wanting the role. And he's the literal symbol of a leader in GNG by the end of it.

Orion... he's said so many times he doesn't want to be and it's not his style, and it shows. He runs in headfirst and completely dismisses others around him. He doesn't want to strategize or talk through things. Reread volume 5 of TLW, around chapter 37. Heck, read the last chapter of volume 4 and go from there, and you'll start to see the ones who trusted Orion most was DEFINITELY just his childhood buddies.. because they're bros! The others struggled to see his leadership as acceptable. Unsai straight up says he doesn't want Orion to be the supreme leader because of his awful his attitude was.

To say he's a good leader is kinda going against him as a character, because he feels absolutely miserable every time he has to do actual leader-like things. Waiting for his comrades to heal, trying to talk to the enemy to back down, heck, even not being trusted in a 'special' role made him throw a temper tantrum. He's 100% a warrior, burning to fight. Born to be a soldier... maybe an army of one. Maybe a loner, traveling and protecting others... but leading an army? That army will be for show, because he wants to do everything himself. In GDN, he's still showing these signs. He has time to improve, and is improving a lot... but no one knows about this in this chapter still. In their mind (minus Tesshin and Ken), he's still the hotheaded, hasty fighter who will go berserk if anyone dare hurts him or his friends/family without any mercy or a second thought.

But really, good leader or not, I just really don't understand...
Kaiken wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 8:49 pm
instead of reminding him that Orion's still his leader and should be at least informed of what's going on (as far as they know, Orion doesn't know of the new threat), putting that Rigel in his place. =/
this part most of all. Rigel ... is Orion's brother. They're family. Rigel isn't doing this to insult his brother, he's doing this for his brother's sake. Weed leaves Ohu to live happily with Koyuki and Gin accepted that and led the army as a father who wants the best for his son.
Rigel is being a brother looking out for his brother and the others, by not traumatizing him with more stress. What place does Rigel need to be put in exactly? Orion's not a god that needs people kissing his feet and bowing down to him, especially not his brother.

In real war time, I get that that would be a serious thing to do.. like if this was Viktor's army and his brother did something on his own judgment, he'd probably heavily punish him ... but the Russian army is harsh and the Ohu army isn't. If Rigel got scolded for speaking his mind, and others just happen to agree, then the Ohu army would be just as gross as the armies they took down.
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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by WolfKing » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:38 am

Spirit Tree wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:45 am
WolfKing wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 11:45 pm
This is a really intense and polarizing argument. Considering that Yoshi apparently got inspiration from politics from these days, perhaps he kind of wanted this kind of an reception from us fans.

In my opinion i don't know who is the "real leader" since both Orion and Sirius had questionable morals in TLW and it made it difficult for me to chose which one was the "right one".

I think it's unfair to out Sirius as the one who was wrong and had terrible morals. I fully admit those statements about that the dogs and humans intruded Akakabuto's territory during the start, and that they (dogs) are the real evil ones etc. and insensitive words about fallen comrades were cringeworthy and i did not agree with that at all since it was such a mind screw and absolutely abysmal things to say. But outing him as a villain was not right in my opinion despite him betraying Ou for his morals. I mean he never planned to kill anyone or make Monsoon attack Ou as revenge for being exiled.

Near the end, he also saved Orion from being killed, which while not totally impressive or enough to make someone change their opinion on him, it showed that he really cared about his family after all and reminded us that he never wanted anyone to die.


Orion certainly never betrayed anyone, which is great. He has a great sense of justice and really cares about his friends and family. But he is the one who insisted that they must kill Monsoon (for obvious reasons though) was a hothead who aggressively yelled at others, assaulted Sirius with a Bamboo stick etc, and led the raid against Monsoon, while exclaiming excitedly "YAHOO!" which in my opinion took away the "battle for justice" feel and changed it into a sort of an "psychopath adventure" or "Bloodlust". He's also motivated by revenge which Unsai stated as a bad thing. I'm still not outing him as a villain either.

Just like Sirius, near the end he shows his love for his friends family by telling others to save Sirius and prioritize him over himself and telling them to make him the leader of Ou.

Now in GDN he has changed a lot, and has flaws like usually but hopefully he develops into a great leader now that Yoshi sacrificed Sirius for his character developments sake. I just wish Yoshi will make Sirius will come and reconcile with Orion so that the broken bond can be fully fixed and make peace at last.


My point is that both Orion and Sirius did equal amount of mistakes and their ideals and actions were questionable at best, and i think that singling out either one of them as the villain or the "true leader or hero" or the one with "right ideals" is just not right. It's a complicated situation. Yoshi just hasn't executed it well enough which makes it even more complicated.
Great post, dude! It sounds similar to the one post that I made back in early January.

And I’m very sorry. It just makes me think that only Orion gets criticized when Sirius should also be criticized. I’m aware that Orion was a hotheaded madman in TLW and did a lot of wrong things before GDN. Like I said back in January, Orion is not the only one who deserves blame for all of his wrongdoings. Sirius deserves blame for all of his wrongdoings, also.

And I’m not calling Sirius a villain. Even though I’ve been saying that he acted or looked like a villain, I don’t mean to call him a villain. Since you brought up the part where Sirius saves Orion from getting stomped, now I’m thinking that he still loved his brother and family and friends so much. Orion probably still loves his brother because he showed it near the end of TLW and has shown it in GDN. But we can’t ignore all of the wrong things that both brothers did in TLW.

However, I really don’t want Yoshi to turn Orion into a villain because of this “large demon” thing and what Rigel said about Orion becoming an “uncontrollable monster.” It would ruin Orion. It would be too cruel. Sure, Orion could be full of rage if he knows that Weed’s life is in more danger. But Rigel could have said something better than “uncontrollable monster.” Yes, Orion is one of my favorite characters, but I’m aware of all of the wrong things that he did before GDN. And just because he threw Shuou off the cliff, it doesn’t make him a monster.

But I’m happy that Orion has been progressing on his character development to be a better character since GDN started. And I’ll be happy to see him learn to harness his dark side and light side and combine them together. That will help him be a better character and leader. I know I’ve said this many times. But I have a strong hope for it. I hope Noah will help him and guide him.

And WolfKing, have you seen my recreation of my predictions? Like you, I still hope that Orion will meet with Sirius in a dreamworld, and both brothers will reconcile. It will also be good if Sirius can admit/realize all of his wrongdoings in TLW. I mean Orion pretty much admitted his. Have a look at my recreation if you want. I’m not forcing you to do that, but it’s your choice.

You have also made a good point, WolfKing. :)
Thanks for the compliment dude! :) I'm glad you like it.

Don't worry people are allowed to have their own opinions on things. As for me i really like Sirius, but not everyone does and along with Orion they are the most debated protagonists of Ginga so far. But my point here is that i'm not taking it personally if someone dislikes Sirius, i mean opinion is an opinion. It's just that i feel a bit sensitive when a character i like is criticized both here in fandom and in-universe in the story.

I've noted that many disliked Rigel's speech about Orion becoming and "uncontrollable monster" was awful to say, and i agree. It was overdone. I know that negative feeling really well, since Sirius has been kind of disrespected in this story.

Earlier Kin or Tama talks about Sirius and says that "He was different from the rest of us" and something like that, and also added a "no offense statement" Now like Digsu earlier noted that it was probably a more objective point of view, still it felt a bit insensitive considering that Orion is grieving him and Sirius is dead.

Coincidentally in the chapter where Rigel gives water and helps Crow, Izou suddenly disapproves this and negatively compares him to Sirius by saying "You're starting to sound like Sirius" This was really insensitive and in my opinion inexcusable to say. I mean Izou has always had an attitude towards Sirius, even now when he is dead.

Yes i wish the same things, Orion must not be turned into a villain. Yoshi will ruin the entire Ginga then. I think the entire Ginga is in a flimsy state considering the flaws and mistakes in TLW, like those many characters from GNG and GDW being killed off and the Ou army being really tiny these days to it. Orion and Sirius reconcile in a dream sequence, i've stated that many times but i keep writing because i'm hopeful of that scene. There are many things i wish to see.

I think i've seen your predictions since there are plenty of predictions these days, and they're really fascinating. We'll see what happens.

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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by Gingaddict » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:10 pm

I've always said Gin was the better leader for informing his allies where he was going and travelling around the world looking after the relatives of the fallen. That's why I believe they're having this problem with the enemy right now because nobody informed the outsiders that Ohu wasn't dead!
I did a Ginga dog horoscope and according my calculations, I am most like Gin! Am I lucky?

I took one of those 'Which character are you?' tests, one which happened to be Ginga related and it said I would
be most like Tesshin! I feel quite honoured!

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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by YamaDora » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:52 pm

Kaiken wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 pm
Can you name any scene when his actions actually endangered anyone? He rushes in, sure, but that doesn't mean he endangers others. He's strong enough to fend for himself and get out of trouble. Besides, when he rushed in against Masamune and Masashige who had Izou and his brothers captured, his rush saved their lives, as Izou had intended the attack to be a suicide mission.
Okay, here's a list of moments from GDWO where Orion's actions puts others in danger:
SPOILER

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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by Kaiken » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:47 pm

Digsu wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:19 am
Kaiken wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 pm
How is jumping into ravine ''going crazy''? Orion felt stressed and needed to cool himself down. He didn't endanger anyone by doing so. If he wants to, he has full rights to jump into ravine, just like anyone else.
Suddenly jumping down a cliff to "cool down" is not something stable people do. If you can't control your emotions under pressure and instead have to resort to dangerous, potentially self-harming stunts to remain calm, you are not fit to be a leader. Also, "did not endanger anyone by doing so"? Jerome nearly died trying to save him.
Kaiken wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 pm
Chibi is a bear and Orion is a bearhound, and they're currently in war with bears, so OF COURSE he should want to kill him! While it would have been very sad to see, I would have preferred if someone (preferably Maru and Sunny) actually killed Chibi, since he's their natural enemy and it makes sense for dogs to attack their enemies, especially after everything Chibi's own bloodline did to them.
Chibi had shown himself to be no threat, capable of speaking the dog language, was backed up by Rigel, and was a scared, defenseless child. Natural enemy or not, if your first instinct upon seeing a helpless child who speaks your language, even if rather clumsily, and whom your own brother is telling you is no threat is to murder it in cold blood for target practice, you clearly have self-control issues and are not fit to be a leader. Also, this was way before Chibi's relation to Akakabuto came to light, and using "they're animals, it's natural for them to act this way" is a pretty debatable argument when talking about dogs who have human intelligence.
Kaiken wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 pm
What page and volume was the Jerome one? TLW was such a mess I don't remember it very well and haven't had time to reread it yet. Either way, I'm pretty sure he did not ''almost kill'' Jerome. He must have just slightly wounded him or hit him accidentally. Jerome is not that easy to kill.
It was immediately after Orion planned to kill Chibi. All right, maybe "almost killed" was a bit of a strong way of putting it, but his reaction is still completely unreasonable. He did not wound Jerome, but that's still not an acceptable thing to do - or would you be okay if a person you were arguing with charged at you and held a knife to your throat, even if they didn't actually end up hurting you? If your response to someone trying to stop you from attacking children and/or your own allies is to physically threaten them, you're not fit to be a leader.

I also fail to see how "Jerome is not that easy to kill" excuses Orion's actions. Again, the mere act of him lunging at Jerome with what he assumed was a deadly weapon is proof that he was - and possibly still is - far too unstable to be a leader. It could have been Gin himself he was doing it to and it still wouldn't be okay; of course he wouldn't actually be able to kill him, but the fact he lost control and physically lashed out at him is in itself alarming as all hell.
Kaiken wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 pm
Back then Orion really was not fit to be the supreme leader (but he could still be good enough to be a commander), true, but he has changed a lot now. Toshimitsu did that more as precaution after Orion did wound his brother with sickle, not that Orion would actually seriously wound Sirius. He could have just cut him again (which is also no good of course), but nothing too serious.
I agree that Orion has changed a lot for the better ever since TLW ended, but we still don't know if he really is ready to be a leader. We haven't seen how he acts under immense pressure like in TLW, and if he's still susceptible to cracking under it as he was back then, then he's not one.

Also, I fail to see how "he wouldn't have seriously hurt Sirius" helps. Again, if you can't control your emotions and can't help but "just slightly" hurt the person you're speaking to because of personal hatreds, you are absolutely not fit to be a leader. Matter of fact, that's not something people in general should do and you probably need some sort of professional help if you do that (or like to jump of cliffs when stressed, or have the uncontrollable need to kill babies, or consider holding a weapon to someone's throat an acceptable conversational technique).
Kaiken wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 pm
What? There was nothing showing they didn't trust him. Choosing to rescue their comrades instead of searching for their leader which could be anywhere in the country, doesn't mean not trusting.
I don't know if this is just a personal opinion, but to me, having trust in your leader includes being confident that they won't turn into a mindless, raging beast under any conditions, and if you can't do that, then you don't trust them. They deliberately chose not to tell Orion; if they'd wanted to, they could have easily sent someone to bring a message to him while the rest went after the Aka'ari (at least in theory, of course the fact that Orion is no longer with Noah would have made it tricky in practice).
Kaiken wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 pm
Again, no evidence that they treat Orion different than Gin and Weed as leader. They treat the other two only different in a way that they are elders, but Orion is still well respected and trusted.
Is there evidence that they do respect Orion as much as Gin and Weed, though? We don't know how they reacted to Weed promoting him to leader and him ditching the entire army without telling anyone where he was going couldn't have improved their opinion of him. There's also the fact that he kept lashing out at his fellow soldiers in TLW, so he doesn't really have the most respectable track record.
Kaiken wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 pm
Orion went to find his mother. That is not wrong. And you know what Gin did shortly after being made leader himself? Exactly. He left the Ohu for 14 years.
Of course it's not wrong, but again, the problem is that he didn't tell anyone where he was going. If he'd explained himself, there'd be nothing wrong with him leaving to find Koyuki and Bella and I'm sure none of the other dogs would have minded, either - it was peacetime and it was about time someone went to pick the two up, after all. At least Gin made it clear why he was leaving and, again, the others already knew he was a capable leader, thanks to his actions during the Akakabuto and Wolf arcs.

I'm also pretty sure it's never said he was gone for all the 14 (or 13, or 15, or whatever the canon number is right now) years between GNG and GDW. In volume 12, Ken says that Gin, John, and Akame began to travel around Japan "after Akakabuto's defeat", which could mean they left very soon afterwards, but the way Smith explains the need for the body doubles in volume 3 makes it sound like Gin didn't spend all that time away, saying that "sometimes" Gin himself had to go and help handle whatever problems other dogs had. Additionally, in volume 7, Akame says that they started using the body doubles "five or six years ago", so it's highly unlikely they spent the full 15/14/13 years on the road. It's still a long time, true, but again, the dogs knew that Gin was a capable leader beforehand, unlike with Orion. Deceiving them by using the body doubles in the first place was admittedly a bit shady, but even that was ultimately another way of trying to ensure the Paradise's safety - again, in contrast, Orion literally abandoned the place and people he was supposed to lead, with not even a hint of him doing anything to ensure things don't fall apart while he's gone.
Actually it is quite realistic when it comes to young adult men who like deepdiving (and are extremely fit). It is their own way of clearing their heads. I agree that Orion should have just told his comrades to stay put and that he's fine. It was Jerome's own fault that he needed saving, but it can be understood. It doesn't say anything about leadership qualities. Neither supporting nor denying them. Orion should have been more considerable, true, but that barely impacts leadership question. Besides, again it was in TLW, when he wasn't a supreme leader yet.

John also killed bear cubs! And true, while they do have human intelligence and some of human values, they are not humans in animal costumes, and they do not share human culture to it's fullest. Orion, who's friends have been mercilessly slaughtered by bears, are seeing a non-threatening bear for the first time. Of course his first instinct is to attack it. He's a hunting dog! He doesn't think about it as not being a threat, it's a bear, an enemy and comes from murderers' species (i.e. bears) as far as he knows. Besides, he later LET THE BEAR GO and agreed not to kill him, showing that he understood and accepted that it's defenseless and not needed to be killed, which is a leadership quality. Also, don't forget that Orion wasn't the only one who wanted to kill that bear. I think you are judging him a bit harshly.
Also, here it looks like Orion was a bit confused about his new responsibility of leader role. He was just trying his best to show that he can be relied on to protect his older comrades and wanted to show off more powerful while feeling bit insecure.

The bamboo stick is not an equivalent of a knife. It's an equivalent of training dummy. The bamboo can be held at anyone's throat all you want, it won't do anything unless swung at full power and even then it only cuts slightly.

Orion was almost a different person in TLW. No one is arguing he could have been leader THEN.
Yeaa, GDN is just too new of a series to tell for sure, but since there has been no obvious signs of army actually not trusting him, that argument should probably be left to wait and see when we get more materials. If he really is meant to be disrespected by Ohu army that will surely be shown soon enough. Yoshi is not the one for long, subtle foreshadowing after all.

Yes, that's what I said. He should have just told them! :D Gin actually did not tell anyone either. Since he wasn't aware of the substitute program that Akame ran, as far as GIN knows, he left Ohu basically leaderless, since he took the other two five top commanders with him.
Orion left the Ohu in capable hands of his father, grandfather and plenty of commanders, generals and allies. Unlike Gin, who left for 6 full years (in that case) and wasn't returning during that time at all plus while leaving Ohu all alone. Orion was leaving for just a short time, so he had absolutely no need to take any precautions.
YamaDora wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:52 pm
Kaiken wrote:
Mon Jun 01, 2020 10:03 pm
Can you name any scene when his actions actually endangered anyone? He rushes in, sure, but that doesn't mean he endangers others. He's strong enough to fend for himself and get out of trouble. Besides, when he rushed in against Masamune and Masashige who had Izou and his brothers captured, his rush saved their lives, as Izou had intended the attack to be a suicide mission.
Okay, here's a list of moments from GDWO where Orion's actions puts others in danger:
SPOILER
I meant in GDN and TLW actually. He's still a young pup in GDWO who doesn't know any better. He's living with the mindset that Joe and Izou has put into him: attacked or be attacked. He has seen war and cruelty. He's traumatized. He doesn't think what's wrong or right, he's being targeted. If he as much shows himself to Masamune he and everyone he knows will be brutally killed, since that's what Masamune did to Kisaragi!
Also, please don't post spoilers of the volumes that haven't yet been translated. Thanks.
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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by JazzyJazz » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:03 pm

What’s going on in this thread anymore :bon3:
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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by Gingaddict » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:11 pm

JazzyJazz wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:03 pm
What’s going on in this thread anymore :bon3:
Tell me about it, I think some of them got too carried away with arguing about Orion being the leader now
I did a Ginga dog horoscope and according my calculations, I am most like Gin! Am I lucky?

I took one of those 'Which character are you?' tests, one which happened to be Ginga related and it said I would
be most like Tesshin! I feel quite honoured!

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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by Dragon » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:12 pm

There's... a lot I could say to some of these points, but I think this is more around the original point...
Kaiken wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:47 pm
Orion was almost a different person in TLW. No one is arguing he could have been leader THEN.
Yeaa, GDN is just too new of a series to tell for sure, but since there has been no obvious signs of army actually not trusting him, that argument should probably be left to wait and see when we get more materials. If he really is meant to be disrespected by Ohu army that will surely be shown soon enough.
Everyone in GDN right now has only seen TLW Orion before he ran off. As you said, TLW Orion was a completely different person. He was an angry, impulsive, impatient guy and as people have shown scenes of, people did doubt his leadership skills. No one is currently aware of his improvements like we, the readers, are.

So this is single-handedly why Rigel and the others aren't telling Orion. :Koyukisweat:
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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by Tsukitora » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:38 pm

In case anyone else needs a mood lightener:

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Maru is baby
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Hirota will remember that.

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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by Akame » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:39 pm

^ very cute!

Sorry for kind of an off topic comment, but do we have any sort of “summary” posts that sum up the events of each chapter? It’s hard to keep up with the happenings with no home WiFi during lockdown, and I’m dying to know what’s been going on!
Stay safe, don't go out in crowds unnecessarily, wash your hands!
I’m sorry for being so inactive during the pandemic, I have no home WiFi and when I have mobile data, no self control!

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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by Dragon » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:02 pm

Akame wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:39 pm
^ very cute!

Sorry for kind of an off topic comment, but do we have any sort of “summary” posts that sum up the events of each chapter? It’s hard to keep up with the happenings with no home WiFi during lockdown, and I’m dying to know what’s been going on!
Sadly no ;o; What chapter did you last read?
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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by Spirit Tree » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:11 pm

Dragon wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:12 pm
There's... a lot I could say to some of these points, but I think this is more around the original point...
Kaiken wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:47 pm
Orion was almost a different person in TLW. No one is arguing he could have been leader THEN.
Yeaa, GDN is just too new of a series to tell for sure, but since there has been no obvious signs of army actually not trusting him, that argument should probably be left to wait and see when we get more materials. If he really is meant to be disrespected by Ohu army that will surely be shown soon enough.
Everyone in GDN right now has only seen TLW Orion before he ran off. As you said, TLW Orion was a completely different person. He was an angry, impulsive, impatient guy and as people have shown scenes of, people did doubt his leadership skills. No one is currently aware of his improvements like we, the readers, are.

So this is single-handedly why Rigel and the others aren't telling Orion. :Koyukisweat:
Of course, that makes sense. But I still say that Tesshin should have told Rigel about Orion being sad and depressed when he and his group found him with Noah. That would have totally helped Rigel know. Still don’t know why Tesshin didn’t tell him, though. And that seems perplexing that he didn’t tell. :bon3:
Tsukitora wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:38 pm
In case anyone else needs a mood lightener:

Image

Maru is baby
Oh come on. What about this one?
Image
That’s adorable, don’t you agree? :tfw_bella2:
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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by Tsukitora » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:42 pm

Spirit Tree wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:11 pm
Tsukitora wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:38 pm
In case anyone else needs a mood lightener:

Image

Maru is baby
Oh come on. What about this one?
Image
That’s adorable, don’t you agree? :tfw_bella2:
Yusssss they both are! <3
:mukonga: :fuuga: :gdwcross: :uzuki: :gdwakatora: :gdwkurotora: :shou: :tama: :maru: :sunny: :tonov:
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Hirota will remember that.

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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by fantachan » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:35 pm

Akame wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:39 pm
^ very cute!

Sorry for kind of an off topic comment, but do we have any sort of “summary” posts that sum up the events of each chapter? It’s hard to keep up with the happenings with no home WiFi during lockdown, and I’m dying to know what’s been going on!
Summary posts would be a great idea! If I had the power to edit the first post of the topic, I'd write the summaries myself. :rigel4:
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Re: Ginga Densetsu Noah, SPOILER THREAD

Post by YamaDora » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:40 am

Kaiken wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:47 pm
I meant in GDN and TLW actually. He's still a young pup in GDWO who doesn't know any better. He's living with the mindset that Joe and Izou has put into him: attacked or be attacked. He has seen war and cruelty. He's traumatized. He doesn't think what's wrong or right, he's being targeted. If he as much shows himself to Masamune he and everyone he knows will be brutally killed, since that's what Masamune did to Kisaragi!
Also, please don't post spoilers of the volumes that haven't yet been translated. Thanks.
My point still applies to Orion in TLW. Don't make me post any examples from it, too.

Also, those volumes are translated - in Finnish. There are enough Finnish people in this fandom who can read them and share the information for those who are interested. Also, you haven't clearly read the entirety of his character arc yet, which doesn't make your claims any better to believe in since you clearly are missing some important things to count in.

And just to make this clear, do not bother to reply to this - this discussion isn't clearly going anywhere with you refusing to believe anything I say (even canon evidence from the series) so I do not wish to waste my or anyone else's time with it. I am personally done with this discussion and wish to not talk about it any further, and just let people talk about the actual topic (the ongoing series) instead.
Sorry everyone for this entire discussion that shouldn't even be on this topic.

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