What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

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OreozFox
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What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

Post by OreozFox » Sun May 09, 2021 5:05 pm

This is the question that inspired my fanfic "Gin's Lesson", but I wanna know your thoughts!

What if Gin had gone against Weed's wishes and done away with the tyrant himself? How do you guys think Weed would have reacted? What about the other Ohu soldiers? How would the story have prgressed from there?

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Re: What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

Post by JazzyJazz » Sun May 09, 2021 5:15 pm

Well first, Weed would’ve SCREECHED LIKE A BANSHEE and cry for a good 5 pages before attacking everyone while everyone is helpless to stop him because he’s Dog Jesus and then he’d attack Gin even though he literally spent the entire arc trying to save him and everyone would just watch because they wouldn’t dare interfere even when Weed is clearly in the wrong, and then Weed would banish Gin for being EVIL AND CRUEL and everyone would just bow to him and instantly accept him as leader because blind forgiveness and letting your enemies have a chance to come back and murder you is so much better, and even though Gin will still be happy even though he got banished by the blue mistake and then idk go on vacation and bump into Yukimura where the nightmare can begin all over again, and when Weed meets Gin again he’ll be hella passive aggressive and shit and Gin’ll just take it because Weed is Dog Jesus
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Re: What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

Post by Phalene » Sun May 09, 2021 5:24 pm

JazzyJazz wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 5:15 pm
Well first, Weed would’ve SCREECHED LIKE A BANSHEE and cry for a good 5 pages before attacking everyone while everyone is helpless to stop him because he’s Dog Jesus and then he’d attack Gin even though he literally spent the entire arc trying to save him and everyone would just watch because they wouldn’t dare interfere even when Weed is clearly in the wrong, and then Weed would banish Gin for being EVIL AND CRUEL and everyone would just bow to him and instantly accept him as leader because blind forgiveness and letting your enemies have a chance to come back and murder you is so much better, and even though Gin will still be happy even though he got banished by the blue mistake and then idk go on vacation and bump into Yukimura where the nightmare can begin all over again, and when Weed meets Gin again he’ll be hella passive aggressive and shit and Gin’ll just take it because Weed is Dog Jesus
Omg those few first lines dropped me, I'm laughing out loud LITERALLY XD Thank you for saving my boring evening

And yep, my money's on this theory, too. Especially the 5 pages of crying
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Re: What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

Post by Silver_Alchemist » Sun May 09, 2021 5:32 pm

Weed would probably not be on very good terms with his dad. I think he would leave the army because: "I'm not gonna stay in a paradise full of MURDERERS!" Or something like that. I think that GB and Mel would follow him and try to get him back. I don't really know what would happen after that, but I would personally want this to be the start of a character arc for Weed where he finds his middle ground between when to spare and when to kill.

Personally, I would've liked it best if Weed killed Hougen, and then that would be his change in character where he would slowly start to find his middle ground, but that's not what this question is about, so I won't elaborate on it.
Have a nice day!

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Re: What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

Post by Arctic Ranger » Sun May 09, 2021 5:44 pm

I'm more interested about what would have happened if Hougen survived. His death, be it manga or anime is just extremely convenient, yeeting him out of the story while Weed nor Gin bloody their fangs. What would they have done with him? I very much doubt he could have ever come around.

Anyways, to stay on topic: I also think Weed would be extremely disappointed in his father and would prolly leave for a different life and paradise.
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Re: What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

Post by Jinto » Sun May 09, 2021 5:52 pm

The series made Hougen too op. Weed should have been allowed to kill him with his battouga. But to answer the question it's hard to say. Weed might have had experience similar to what he had about Jerome were later he understands the other side of it.
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Re: What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

Post by Dragon » Sun May 09, 2021 7:18 pm

It would be SO much more interesting, thats for sure! The father he tried so hard to find, try so hard to be like, doing the exact thing he banished Jerome for and later almost fell into himself. He went into a rampage after thinking Gin died, showing how much Gin was his ideal hero. If Gin later did the exact same thing... Weed would probably struggle to be himself, possibly leaving the army to figure out his mindset.
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Re: What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

Post by SoullessDog » Sun May 09, 2021 10:46 pm

It's debatable. There's at least four ways I think this could go, and three have already been brought up.

1. Personally, I think your fic is pretty realistic if you take Weed as he is in canon and prevent Gin and others from degrading like they did in canon.

2. If we're talking pure canon, JazzyJazz got it spot on. So I don't really need to elaborate further.

3. Then there's what Silver Alchemist said. Weed could leave in a fit of rage and disappoint, but would eventually start opening his eyes and begin a transition into a better male.

4. And lastly, I think Weed could struggle with the realization of how different his own morals are from his father's. This could end good or bad, depending on whether or not Weed transitions into a better male or a male like what we got in canon.

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Re: What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

Post by Dragon » Sun May 09, 2021 11:43 pm

SoullessDog wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 10:46 pm
4. And lastly, I think Weed could struggle with the realization of how different his own morals are from his father's. This could end good or bad, depending on whether or not Weed transitions into a better male or a male like what we got in canon.
Imagine Weed going Batman-like rogue. While Ohu stays the main group that save people, Weed is the one to save smaller groups and talk the villains into changing, hoping to one day perfect his ability and face Gin again in showing he was right....
Oh hey... ISNT THAT SIRIUS!? :orion4:
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Re: What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

Post by SoullessDog » Mon May 10, 2021 1:01 am

Dragon wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 11:43 pm
SoullessDog wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 10:46 pm
4. And lastly, I think Weed could struggle with the realization of how different his own morals are from his father's. This could end good or bad, depending on whether or not Weed transitions into a better male or a male like what we got in canon.
Imagine Weed going Batman-like rogue. While Ohu stays the main group that save people, Weed is the one to save smaller groups and talk the villains into changing, hoping to one day perfect his ability and face Gin again in showing he was right....
Oh hey... ISNT THAT SIRIUS!? :orion4:
If we're talking like Batman, that isn't necessarily wrong. Well, depending on the version of Batman. But generally, Batman doesn't exactly go to the same extremes that Weed and Sirius went to in order to avoid killing their enemies. I'd say Batman did a better job at applying his no-killing rule, while Weed and Sirius took the wrong approach.

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Re: What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

Post by Phantom Riki » Mon May 10, 2021 10:25 am

Jinto wrote:
Sun May 09, 2021 5:52 pm
The series made Hougen too op. Weed should have been allowed to kill him with his battouga. But to answer the question it's hard to say. Weed might have had experience similar to what he had about Jerome were later he understands the other side of it.
I agree wholeheartedly
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Re: What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

Post by Phantom Riki » Mon May 10, 2021 10:29 am

In my opinion Gin would have tried to make Weed understand by using his own example about how he spared Sniper too many times when he was young and then Sniper almost took Ben's life.
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Re: What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

Post by Leomonade » Mon May 10, 2021 11:50 am

A lot of the issues I have with Weed sparing Hougen and the end of that arc are problems that the whole series has atm.

The old generation of characters aren't allowed to teach/raise the new one.
Instead it is only the new main cast that makes everyone go "oooh! Aah!".
It Is Gin's job, as Weed's father to raise his own kid. To share his knowledge and experiences so Weed doesn't have to make the same mistakes he did.
But we get none of that kind of mentoring in the series. Battle training is as far at it goes..
Yoshi has structured the series in the way that the protagonist is "the teacher".

Weed, a child, sparing and obviously crazy and 100% malicious dude is not the part that I have a problem with. I have a problem with none of the adults doing anything about what was going on. In a way, Gin letting Weed make mistakes and learn the hard way could be ok. But this should not be at the expense of other peoples safety and lives! And Gin really should not have made Weed the new leader. Regardless if Hougen was killed or not.

I would have very much preferred Hougen dying in the 1-on-1 battle, Gin continuing to lead and Weed being either mentored or him continuing to travel the land.
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Re: What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

Post by Jodai343 » Mon May 10, 2021 11:53 am

Phantom Riki wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 10:29 am
In my opinion Gin would have tried to make Weed understand by using his own example about how he spared Sniper too many times when he was young and then Sniper almost took Ben's life.
And then Weed would say "whatever dad" or just stare back at him without dialog (......) :tfw_rigel1: :tfw_rigel1:

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Re: What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

Post by Digsu » Mon May 10, 2021 12:27 pm

The manga kind of implies that Gin was only pretending to execute Hougen as a test and Weed stopping him from doing so was exactly what he'd been hoping for. So I assume that had Weed not stopped him (or outright agreed that he was doing the right thing), Gin would have spared Hougen himself, told Weed "son, I am disappoint", and given everyone present basically the same lecture about needing to treasure life and not cause cycles of vengeance that Weed gives in the canon. He also wouldn't have made Weed leader just yet, believing that he still has more to learn before he's worthy of being Supreme Commander.

But assuming he did kill him, I'm going to echo what others have said and agree that this would have majorly pissed Weed off. And... that'd be the only bad thing to happen, basically, as Hougen existing was 100% a bad thing for the world, the only person who'd be upset about his death is himself long dead, and the only other people who'd miss him would be other scumbags who are just mad that he didn't manage to set up the chaotic society where the weak only exist to serve the strong they were looking forward to.



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Re: What if Gin had killed Hougen anyway?

Post by KremlinJill » Tue May 11, 2021 12:27 am

Leomonade wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 11:50 am
A lot of the issues I have with Weed sparing Hougen and the end of that arc are problems that the whole series has atm.

The old generation of characters aren't allowed to teach/raise the new one.
Instead it is only the new main cast that makes everyone go "oooh! Aah!".
It Is Gin's job, as Weed's father to raise his own kid. To share his knowledge and experiences so Weed doesn't have to make the same mistakes he did.
But we get none of that kind of mentoring in the series. Battle training is as far at it goes..
Yoshi has structured the series in the way that the protagonist is "the teacher".

Weed, a child, sparing and obviously crazy and 100% malicious dude is not the part that I have a problem with. I have a problem with none of the adults doing anything about what was going on. In a way, Gin letting Weed make mistakes and learn the hard way could be ok. But this should not be at the expense of other peoples safety and lives! And Gin really should not have made Weed the new leader. Regardless if Hougen was killed or not.

I would have very much preferred Hougen dying in the 1-on-1 battle, Gin continuing to lead and Weed being either mentored or him continuing to travel the land.
Digsu wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 12:27 pm
The manga kind of implies that Gin was only pretending to execute Hougen as a test and Weed stopping him from doing so was exactly what he'd been hoping for. So I assume that had Weed not stopped him (or outright agreed that he was doing the right thing), Gin would have spared Hougen himself, told Weed "son, I am disappoint", and given everyone present basically the same lecture about needing to treasure life and not cause cycles of vengeance that Weed gives in the canon. He also wouldn't have made Weed leader just yet, believing that he still has more to learn before he's worthy of being Supreme Commander.

But assuming he did kill him, I'm going to echo what others have said and agree that this would have majorly pissed Weed off. And... that'd be the only bad thing to happen, basically, as Hougen existing was 100% a bad thing for the world, the only person who'd be upset about his death is himself long dead, and the only other people who'd miss him would be other scumbags who are just mad that he didn't manage to set up the chaotic society where the weak only exist to serve the strong they were looking forward to.
Strongly agree with these!
Weed had came very far as a leader during unusual times (forced into the role) so downtime with him having to grow under Gin would have tempered him more, helped him into learning how to control his emotions more and also the true weight of leadership, that dogs were willing to blindly follow him unto death. Weed needed a break from the trauma, though series wise (assuming end of Hougen arc was end of series) it made sense to tie up loose ends and make Weed leader. But it would have be better for the series as it is for Gin to lead and slowly transfer power to Weed, if at all-perhaps Weed would have done good as a battalion commander instead of total general.
I don't think Hougen himself really meant much at this point, as there was no way of survival after the battle for him, thus as Digsu said-Gin was using Hougen as a test to see how merciful Weed could be. It clashes with the characters being dogs, as this is more a human thing to do (how many human characters in media have pulled this and been praised for it?).

I also think that Weed was a traumatised child sitting there in the snow bleeding out and high on emotion during this scene. Unless he got his way there was no sane way for him to react. If Gin took over I think Weed would have thrown a huge delirious fit in the moment, then probably pass out from blood loss. I think after he would come to again (and start healing) he would be at odds with Gin but slowly begin to mature more and understand why Gin had to finish Hougen. I think if Weed ran off like a cry baby he would just come back a while later-he is thankfully not nearly as egotistic as Sirius, and GB would help bring Weed back to reality (ex.the Hokkaido arc).

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