Orion vs Sirius

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Re: Orion vs Sirius

Post by Kaiken » Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:31 pm

Uru wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:54 pm
Kaiken wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:14 pm
It doesn't? I always thought being head of family means being family leader... He always posed as leader: when Ken and Kage went to meet him, when he and his nephews prepared to face Gemba's army, etc.. oh well.

That's the thing, GB really was considered officer, through Sasuke wasn't. I can't recall quite well, but it definitely was mentioned even several times. I'll post screenshots once I reread the part again.. ^^

Akakama ordered Sirius to kill his subordinate just because he had fractured/broken leg from training. He also abandoned his injured soldiers after battle and claimed to not care about them.

Kamakiri fight was more of a Tesshin's doing really, but ok, it barely counts maybe as argument, through definitely not torture.
Hmm, I don't really recall that Bon scene... Definitely wanna reread it again! Was it translated? Which volume?

Weed left Kamakiri to get eaten alive, Hougen couldn't have survived with cracked skull, and same goes for Masamune. Nobody was pinning him down. He was left unable to walk, laying in his own blood.

There is NO evidence Orion would have killed Sirius. The entire skirmish of brothers was very similar to that of Weed's and Mura's fight. Also, why do you think Orion would want to KILL everyone who just disagrees with him? Nothing like that has ever been said in the series.
There is big difference being the leader of army and being head of family.

Most of times when GB is mentioned as officer or similar, is when it's a joke or when they are in trouble and GB starts threatening others with Ouu army. I can't remember if there was any serious moments when he was referred as leader or officer.

That's true, but it's not really a waste. What would Kamakiri do with injured soldiers when he has to swim over sea? But I had forgotten that scene. It's true that he was planning to kill that soldier and probably had done so before.

It's volume 26, it's published in Japanese and Finnish only, I think.

Weed was never around, when Kamakiri died. Ginga dogs have survived worse injuries than Hougen and Hougen was able to walk, start making plans for new war and attack on human, so I think Hougen could have survived. Same with Masamune.

Orion has thrown Sirius with sickle, threatened to cut him with sickle and attacked Sirius with bamboo stick (which Kamakiri managed to stop). If no one would have stopped Orion, he would have hit Sirius with sickle and I think that counts as trying to kill someone. And Sirius didn't do anything. He was just disagreeing with Orion and they were arguing.
Orion has killed few dogs who were against him and he has many times say that he will kill this and that villain even thought he did not know them. Only reason why he haven't killed more is that he hasn't been able to attack all of his enemies.

I kinda meant Weed's other friends, not just GB specifically...

Good point, but that isn't such serious wound. Give it a few months rest and he could be back on line. Killing is a bit of extreme over training wound.

Oh. Well, in that case I cannot say anything about it, because I can only talk about translated volumes. We should wait until it gets released. :D

Actually Weed was right there... :o He even led the Ohu army away, back to their HQ.
I think it's 50/50 - there's no way to say it for sure, but Masamune wasn't able to walk, otherwise he'd have done that even if it's just to try to take someone down with him.

There is a big difference between cutting one and killing. Orion never aimed for vitals, he, being as impulsive as he is, just swung it around, but without murderous intent. Also, that bamboo no way could have killed Sirius. It didn't even scar Kamakiri.
"Orion has killed few dogs who were against him".. Who? :o When? :o
Every single character (except Sirius) has talked about killing the villains.
How about Riki's line on gng ep17: ''the mountains will flow with blood, but not ours, Akakabuto's blood''.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

Post by methpring » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:22 am

Kaiken wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:14 pm
Weed left Kamakiri to get eaten alive.
Uru wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:54 pm
Weed was never around, when Kamakiri died.
Kaiken wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:14 pm
Actually Weed was right there... :o He even led the Ohu army away, back to their HQ.
This scene is different in manga and anime. In manga, Weed is not around when Kamakiri is defeated by Hiro.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

Post by Kaiken » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:06 pm

methpring wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:22 am
Kaiken wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:14 pm
Weed left Kamakiri to get eaten alive.
Uru wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:54 pm
Weed was never around, when Kamakiri died.
Kaiken wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:14 pm
Actually Weed was right there... :o He even led the Ohu army away, back to their HQ.
This scene is different in manga and anime. In manga, Weed is not around when Kamakiri is defeated by Hiro.

Oh, really? Didn't know that... I cannot argue about anything from untranslated scenes, so looks like this is yet another thing that will have to wait.
Last edited by Kaiken on Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

Post by Uru » Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:43 pm

Kaiken wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:31 pm
I kinda meant Weed's other friends, not just GB specifically...

Good point, but that isn't such serious wound. Give it a few months rest and he could be back on line. Killing is a bit of extreme over training wound.

Oh. Well, in that case I cannot say anything about it, because I can only talk about translated volumes. We should wait until it gets released. :D

Actually Weed was right there... :o He even led the Ohu army away, back to their HQ.
I think it's 50/50 - there's no way to say it for sure, but Masamune wasn't able to walk, otherwise he'd have done that even if it's just to try to take someone down with him.

There is a big difference between cutting one and killing. Orion never aimed for vitals, he, being as impulsive as he is, just swung it around, but without murderous intent. Also, that bamboo no way could have killed Sirius. It didn't even scar Kamakiri.
"Orion has killed few dogs who were against him".. Who? :o When? :o
Every single character (except Sirius) has talked about killing the villains.
How about Riki's line on gng ep17: ''the mountains will flow with blood, but not ours, Akakabuto's blood''.
Please keep in mind what are spoken with previous messages. I have listed and explained lot about characters, but you are ignoring it. This wasn't about GB, but characters you listed as leaders, but that were not leaders.

Orion-manga was relased years ago and Finnish translation is the only official translation there is. (I don't think it was translated in Chinese or Korean either.) You should read the series. This is section of TLW, you know, next part of Ginga-series. Orion is the previous series. If we don't talk about things that don't have translation, we should also ignore most of things happening in TLW too.

Weed was not there. Are you perhaps talking about anime? This was one of the scenes that they changed there and made no sense with original manga.

Orion did aim for vitals: he hit Sirius in the head & near eyes and Kamakiri on the throat, you know, same place he hit to kill Monsoon. Orion also was able to cut animals and trees at that point, but wasn't yet controlling his powers so he could have killed someone. And at this point, dogs haven't gotten scars from anything. No one got scars from battling against Monsoon and he was giant bear.

Again, I recommend reading the manga. Orion has killed almost all enemies that he have fought against. It's very difficult to have this conversation if you don't read the manga we are talking about...

What do you mean about dogs talking about killing characters? I don't really understand how does it connect to this. This is series with lot of battling, so of course there is lot of talk about killing.

Edit: About having the translations. You can understand a lot by simple reading the comics without translation. Most of this stuff is something you can simply see if you look at the pictures. Takahahi is also very good at the story telling so you usually can understand what is happening in the story by looking at the pictures. That's how I used to read GNG, Weed and now last parts of Orion and TLW.

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Re: Orion vs Sirius

Post by Arano » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:49 pm

I think this topic has gone on a bit of a meander!

When comparing characters to a previous series, I feel both the GNG and GDW anime should be considered retcons and not viable comparisons when discussing manga characters in this context. There's too many discrepancies.

Changing the topic ever so slightly, in light of this translated portion from fanta:
fantachan wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:49 am
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dt1DsAfUcAAA5rw.jpg

Orion: He put down my brother! Let's go now!! I'll separate Monsoon from him!
Orion: In the meantime, take my brother back! Whatever happens to me, make my brother your priority!

Theeeen, this happens...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dt1DrYgUUAAVExg.jpg

So it looks like Orion wanted everyone to look after Sirius, and everyone completely ignored him. WTF is wrong with this army?? :EMPTY:
At the very end he was trying to save Sirius (even though that was not the actual outcome), with this bit of knowledge, has anyones opinion of Orion changed at all in terms of leadership potential?

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Re: Orion vs Sirius

Post by Kaiken » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:28 pm

Uru wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 4:43 pm
Kaiken wrote:
Tue Dec 11, 2018 11:31 pm
I kinda meant Weed's other friends, not just GB specifically...

Good point, but that isn't such serious wound. Give it a few months rest and he could be back on line. Killing is a bit of extreme over training wound.

Oh. Well, in that case I cannot say anything about it, because I can only talk about translated volumes. We should wait until it gets released. :D

Actually Weed was right there... :o He even led the Ohu army away, back to their HQ.
I think it's 50/50 - there's no way to say it for sure, but Masamune wasn't able to walk, otherwise he'd have done that even if it's just to try to take someone down with him.

There is a big difference between cutting one and killing. Orion never aimed for vitals, he, being as impulsive as he is, just swung it around, but without murderous intent. Also, that bamboo no way could have killed Sirius. It didn't even scar Kamakiri.
"Orion has killed few dogs who were against him".. Who? :o When? :o
Every single character (except Sirius) has talked about killing the villains.
How about Riki's line on gng ep17: ''the mountains will flow with blood, but not ours, Akakabuto's blood''.
Please keep in mind what are spoken with previous messages. I have listed and explained lot about characters, but you are ignoring it. This wasn't about GB, but characters you listed as leaders, but that were not leaders.

Orion-manga was relased years ago and Finnish translation is the only official translation there is. (I don't think it was translated in Chinese or Korean either.) You should read the series. This is section of TLW, you know, next part of Ginga-series. Orion is the previous series. If we don't talk about things that don't have translation, we should also ignore most of things happening in TLW too.

Weed was not there. Are you perhaps talking about anime? This was one of the scenes that they changed there and made no sense with original manga.

Orion did aim for vitals: he hit Sirius in the head & near eyes and Kamakiri on the throat, you know, same place he hit to kill Monsoon. Orion also was able to cut animals and trees at that point, but wasn't yet controlling his powers so he could have killed someone. And at this point, dogs haven't gotten scars from anything. No one got scars from battling against Monsoon and he was giant bear.

Again, I recommend reading the manga. Orion has killed almost all enemies that he have fought against. It's very difficult to have this conversation if you don't read the manga we are talking about...

What do you mean about dogs talking about killing characters? I don't really understand how does it connect to this. This is series with lot of battling, so of course there is lot of talk about killing.

Edit: About having the translations. You can understand a lot by simple reading the comics without translation. Most of this stuff is something you can simply see if you look at the pictures. Takahahi is also very good at the story telling so you usually can understand what is happening in the story by looking at the pictures. That's how I used to read GNG, Weed and now last parts of Orion and TLW.

Um... You're confusing. I barely understand lucky if half of it... =/
The mentioned characters were officers, as in above many and below some, that kind of leaders.
Well, I'm not Finnish. Also, I couldn't care less about official translations. I only meant fan-translations, aka english scans, that aren't fully complete. Meaning, I have carefully re-read each and every ginga page available in english, be it orion, tlw, gng or gdw.
THAT was already established in previous comments. Yes, I did not know that in comic Weed wasn't present when Kamakiri was murdered.
Head and eyes does not count as vitals, not for dogs, and definitely not in ginga. Orion was never aiming for Akakama's throat. He just suddenly jumped in a way and got hit on side of neck, not throat too.
Exactly, judging by the wounds that bird got, it's nothing deadly to adult dogs (in ginga), after how Monsoon sliced Kurotora.
What do YOU mean by dogs talking of killing enemies? You said it as it's a sin for Orion to which I replied implying that it's common thing to do, and well, WHAT ELSE WOULD YOU DO TO YOUR ENEMIES? That's why they're enemies! And that also answers what u said of orion killing em.

No, I can't. I'm not that kind of person. Comics are meant for reading primary, not looking at pictures. Ew. I also don't want any spoilers, that's why I couldn't offer help in scan projects. :(
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

Post by Uru » Fri Dec 14, 2018 8:03 am

Kaiken wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:28 pm
Um... You're confusing. I barely understand lucky if half of it... =/
The mentioned characters were officers, as in above many and below some, that kind of leaders.
Well, I'm not Finnish. Also, I couldn't care less about official translations. I only meant fan-translations, aka english scans, that aren't fully complete. Meaning, I have carefully re-read each and every ginga page available in english, be it orion, tlw, gng or gdw.
THAT was already established in previous comments. Yes, I did not know that in comic Weed wasn't present when Kamakiri was murdered.
Head and eyes does not count as vitals, not for dogs, and definitely not in ginga. Orion was never aiming for Akakama's throat. He just suddenly jumped in a way and got hit on side of neck, not throat too.
Exactly, judging by the wounds that bird got, it's nothing deadly to adult dogs (in ginga), after how Monsoon sliced Kurotora.
What do YOU mean by dogs talking of killing enemies? You said it as it's a sin for Orion to which I replied implying that it's common thing to do, and well, WHAT ELSE WOULD YOU DO TO YOUR ENEMIES? That's why they're enemies! And that also answers what u said of orion killing em.

No, I can't. I'm not that kind of person. Comics are meant for reading primary, not looking at pictures. Ew. I also don't want any spoilers, that's why I couldn't offer help in scan projects. :(
I'm sorry about that. If you can't understand something, just ask.

I just explained, many times, that none of the characters you listed are officers. This is because there is only few leaders in GDW. In GNG, there is lot of leaders, officers etc, but we are not talking about that, but about Orion and Sirius.

Yes, the comment was written during I wrote my message, but I didn't bother to delete it as I thought that it was still important part. There is lot of differences between anime and manga. I think manga is always the original canon whatever the anime makes good or bad changes.

Head is very important vital part of body whatever you are dog, bear, human, monkey or insect. So are eyes. Lot of characters have died because they lost their eye and were not able to dodge the next attack. Side of the neck is very similar to throat as there is lot of blood vessels and nerves there.
And as you can see, this proves my point: Orion wasn't able to stop his attack and instead of his original target he hit Akakama, who just tried to stop the situation. Orion was given dangerous weapon and in many times it was proven that he attacks his pack or family if someone annoys him. He also tried to kill Chibi -as it was mentioned by Atha- and that makes no sense as Chibi is just a baby animal that is following dogs to get help. That's not good leader quality.

How easily dogs die and don't die... I think it's kind of plot hole as there has been many injuries that have been said to be fatal, but in the end everyone has been alright. If you compare Unsai's wound that didn't even leave scar and wounds that killed Sirius it doesn't really make sense.

I listed things that Orion has done and mentioned that he also talks lot about killing. You only started talking about how Riki also mentioned killing bears (when he was going to all out war) so it was rather confusing. Yes, Orion mentiones many times, that he wants to kill all of his enemies. This is very unlike than other characters: Gin is only interested in taking down Akakabuto and his minions, never any other character (Sniper, Hyena and Kurojaki are all forgiven by him), Riki does the same (John, strays), Weed does the same and mostly talks about defeating his enemies, not killing. Orion is the only one that is always "I will kill this and that" and he also does it if he has the change.

I recommend reading WEED-manga as there is lot of things happening to enemies that does not including killing them: Rocket, Blue, Thunder & Lecter, Lydia, Aram, Maxim... In GDW:Orion, there is Kamakiri brothers and also lot of characters in smaller roles.
No, I can't. I'm not that kind of person. Comics are meant for reading primary, not looking at pictures. Ew. I also don't want any spoilers, that's why I couldn't offer help in scan projects. :(
Really? I have seen that you have been rather active in TLW spoiler topic and for long time that topic has only contained spoilers, not translations. I'm also very sorry as I have now spoiled you lot of things that have happened only in WEED-manga and also in Orion. But I also can't promise that I won't do that again as this is TLW section and minor spoilers about previous parts are ok. Also -as I said previously- it's impossible to have this kind of conversation if you don't follow the series. Lot of main events like Hiro and Reika having pups aren't translated by fans but you can easily understand that they are family by simply looking at the manga.

I also have to disagree with your opinion about comics being meant to read only. I think that applies to books and comics can be very enjoyable to read even if you look at the pictures only. Takahashi is also very talented mangaka and you can easily understand many parts of the story even if you can't read Japanese. I honestly have to say that you saiying "ew" is rather insulting when I suggested that you would take a look at the manga...

But as it was mentioned earlier, I think it would be good if this conversation was more about Sirius & Orion.
At the very end he was trying to save Sirius (even though that was not the actual outcome), with this bit of knowledge, has anyones opinion of Orion changed at all in terms of leadership potential?
I really liked that Orion did this. I'm not sure if this makes him better leader (he left Sirius alone soon, I assume), but I like that in the end he atleast tried to help Sirius. I would have liked to see them talk bit more. Of course, they might talk more. What I hope that Orion won't call Sirius idiot or anything else while he helps him...
I also hope that Orion (or Weed or Gin or Rigel) asked Cross to stay by Sirius's side. I can understand that battle was more important priority here, but they should have also checked how badly their family member was injured. I feel sad if Orion was angry at the Sirius to the very end, but if Weed, Gin or Rigel didn't do anything, I'm honestly just very very dissapointed.

This doesn't really change my opionion about Orion not being leadership material, but it atleast makes him more likeable.

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Re: Orion vs Sirius

Post by kahooton » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:53 am

https://youtu.be/a17pgn0qmXA

ok... but i was listening to this and just imagine an amv or edit of this song with Orion and Sirius LOL

perhaps I'll have to be the one to do it... :THOT:
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

Post by Phantom Riki » Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:21 am

Sometimes I think that Yoshi just tried to make Orion the copy of Riki but forgot to include the charisma and characteristics of him. With that being said I am still backing Orion a not Sirius. Wars will happen when needed and you just can't stop them by the name is peace.
I think Orion just needs a little character development maybe Gin can finally teach him some things.
I want Orion as supreme commander of Ohu after Weed.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

Post by Dragon » Sat Jan 09, 2021 10:10 am

As for who I want to be leader... I want it to either be Rigel or someone who isn't blood related to the bearhound family. The title was never meant to be passed down based on bloodline anyways, but Gin and Weed are so full of pride in themselves, they think they'll always spawn perfect leaders, when in reality... it kinda almost never turned out right lol;

Kaiken's point of John leading a pack of 800 dogs is really interesting! However, being a leader and being a good leader is two different things. John, I'm sure, probably won people over by making them bow to his number of soldiers (as we saw him make Henry the third kiss his feet). That's, honestly, Hougen level kinda stuff, the guy who told people to eat his own... well.. you know. That shows how strong of a leader John was, but the ideal leader, especially for Ohu, wouldn't be this way.

Orion is built to be a soldier. He's always ready to fight, he doesn't want to use others to fight his battles; and I don't mean to be selfless, but because he only trusts his own abilities above all else and enjoys fighting. When forced to be a leader, he was miserable and broke down, but carried the burden of the role anyways. Everyone listened, but the distress was very clear. Everyone was bonded over their hate for Monsoon, not their trust in Orion. Even when Orion made orders, he was faced with opposition. He didn't want to listen to others' disagreement on how to handle situations. He almost lost control against his own allies A LOT of times:
the throwing incident
Orion tries again to attack Sirius (notice his 'I held back because you got in the way'):
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Orion threatens Jerome:
part 1
part 2
part 3

This shows his furiousness, but extreme lack of control of his anger. Even if he knew to stop, can you imagine your young, hot-headed leader throwing a tantrum, you giving advice, and he choke-holds you and say 'I could break your neck right now, but I won't'?
He can be called a leader, even an entertaining leader (because where else will the protagonist in a leadership role be this chaotic?) but clearly this role is not suitable for him and he'd even prefer not to. Weed sucks as a leader and parent just as much for trying to push this on his young, stressed out, impressionable son. Even Gin made this mistake, but Weed worked throughout GDW to try to improve being the ideal Ohu leader, and that was such a roller coaster. If Orion wants to be a real leader, he's definitely going to need this roller coaster moment, like we're seeing right now in GDN. However, if Orion doesn't become a leader... that isn't a bad thing. In fact, I like that. There's no reason to force an unfitting trait on him, especially one that makes him unhappy. Not being suited to be a leader does NOT mean being weak. If only Yoshi acknowledged that.

Sirius on the other hand ...is also a terrible leader, almost for the same exact reason but flipped upside down. Like Orion, Sirius wants to fix things the way he wants to. No other options are deemed fit to him. While Orion wants to hyperfocus on killing his enemies, Sirius wants to hyperfocus on changing his enemies. This requires no one to follow Sirius's orders. His orders would be to 'play nice' until the change happens. Just look at Chibi and Zion. Zion was his translator, Chibi was his 'look, I was right!' tools. He cared about the end result of no more fights, but was completely blind to those who got hurt along this straining path. Orion almost DIED because Sirius was so set on talking to the enemy.

Not to mention, his empathy for others who suffered is zero. As a leader, he holds no actual compassion for his friends and allies pain, or even the random people around who got hurt from it too (Bob). He expects them to move on right away, possibly because he never lost someone himself, so his understanding of their pain, though he claims he gets it, he actually doesnt. Not to mention, he was the one who recklessly tossed the only weapon that was keeping his friends at bay against the enemies. He's just too blinded by his own ambitions that he doesn't realize how far away he is from his goal, which will only endanger everyone around him.

Orion trained himself to be a powerhouse to take on Monsoon alone, and if he was forced to have people follow him, it was to be used to surround Monsoon so HE can finish the enemy. Sirius would have ordered everyone to be kind to Monsoon so HE could soothe Monsoon's rage faster. Both care about their friends and families' deaths, but one is to avenge and the other is to stop it from continuing. Their hearts are in the right spot, but they are definitely not in the right mindset to lead. If they had it their way, they would head in alone on their ideals and would have died alone doing so. They were raised to grow up on their own for so long, that it stuck. I like that though. It feels intentional, and seeing these types having to try leading but failing only makes sense. They were not born leaders for sure and I feel like Yoshi clearly showed us that throughout TLW. To try forcing the label 'leader' on either characters feel like missing the point of their character.

To answer the thread's question, for entertainment sake, I'd pick seeing Orion being an angry leader as a main Bearhound character, just because of what sort of conflicts it could bring to the plot. Trying to imagine Weed x100 and having to be right in the end ... pains me to imagine. :tfw_sirius2: With whose ideals I agree with more... I feel like while Sirius's is the best end result, it just.. won't work in every instance. Just look at Weed giving Sniper a chance. In anime land, where Sniper and other villains are written as 100% heartless and only wanting to kill, Sirius's way just doesn't work. Can you imagine Sirius talking the psycho, Shogun, into not drinking baby blood? ... I can't. Orion, if he tones it down juussttt a bit, I can understand more. Uru's mention of those torturing scenes in GDWO though was really hard to watch...

But I'm also glad I read this thread! Rereading TLW a bit again, it has soooo many interesting plot points and views. It's kinda like GDWO in a way, but Yoshi was given no time to go anywhere with the ideas and was too scatterbrained with it to answer any of the questions brought up in the story .-.
(OMG I'M SO SORRY FOR THIS TEXT WALL)
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