Sirius's actions

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Sirius's actions

Post by rebina » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:23 pm

What do you think of Sirius's actions? If he actually thought about consequences like how people have to go through pain then only they will have peace, would he still be alive then? :bon3:

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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Dragon » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:39 pm

I think no, because he is told many times about people's feelings about the harm Monsoon has done to them, but he only wanted to focus on the end goal. Jerome and Chibi both told him Monsoon's killings are unforgivable. Bob explained his story of being held hostage since a pup and Sirius BLAMED Bob for being in that situation and undermined it. Orion tells Sirius multiple times of all the friends they lost because of Monsoon. Nonetheless, Sirius went on and on about an endless cycle of revenge and how Ohu stole Monsoon's home so he has the right to be mad.

So... yeah, Sirius ia one stubborn guy xD I think if Monsoon killed more innocences in front of his eyes, he'd change...maybe.
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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Wolpard » Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:35 pm

Dragon wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:39 pm
I think no, because he is told many times about people's feelings about the harm Monsoon has done to them, but he only wanted to focus on the end goal. Jerome and Chibi both told him Monsoon's killings are unforgivable. Bob explained his story of being held hostage since a pup and Sirius BLAMED Bob for being in that situation and undermined it. Orion tells Sirius multiple times of all the friends they lost because of Monsoon. Nonetheless, Sirius went on and on about an endless cycle of revenge and how Ohu stole Monsoon's home so he has the right to be mad.

So... yeah, Sirius ia one stubborn guy xD I think if Monsoon killed more innocences in front of his eyes, he'd change...maybe.
I mean... he is kinda right. XD Monsoon was a cub when Ohu (rightfully) killed his father but they also killed a bunch of innocent cubs, Monsoon's siblings included, and drove them out of their home. He was paying for his father's actions when he was just a kid, I think that would piss anyone off.

I don't think Sirius necessarily disregarded other's suffering under Monsoon, more so that he thought they should be the "bigger person" and stop the chain of revenge. I think he was definitely overly idealistic but he wasn't totally wrong because he was able to partially get through to him despite the challenges working against him.

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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Dragon » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:10 pm

Wolpard wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:35 pm
Dragon wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:39 pm
I think no, because he is told many times about people's feelings about the harm Monsoon has done to them, but he only wanted to focus on the end goal. Jerome and Chibi both told him Monsoon's killings are unforgivable. Bob explained his story of being held hostage since a pup and Sirius BLAMED Bob for being in that situation and undermined it. Orion tells Sirius multiple times of all the friends they lost because of Monsoon. Nonetheless, Sirius went on and on about an endless cycle of revenge and how Ohu stole Monsoon's home so he has the right to be mad.

So... yeah, Sirius ia one stubborn guy xD I think if Monsoon killed more innocences in front of his eyes, he'd change...maybe.
I mean... he is kinda right. XD Monsoon was a cub when Ohu (rightfully) killed his father but they also killed a bunch of innocent cubs, Monsoon's siblings included, and drove them out of their home. He was paying for his father's actions when he was just a kid, I think that would piss anyone off.

I don't think Sirius necessarily disregarded other's suffering under Monsoon, more so that he thought they should be the "bigger person" and stop the chain of revenge. I think he was definitely overly idealistic but he wasn't totally wrong because he was able to partially get through to him despite the challenges working against him.
It is true. It's definitely what makes this arc interesting to dissect. Akakabuto terrorized humans, dogs put a stop to it, but then they went too far in killing his kids, so now the remaining kids are kicked out. Both have done wrong now and this was only to be expected. Sirius tried his best to fix Monsoon when he couldn't fix the others. Some things he did was still really annoying for sure though. His treatment to Bob made me reaaaallllyyy struggle to side with him for a long time :tfw_sirius2:
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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Wolpard » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:16 pm

Dragon wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:10 pm
Wolpard wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:35 pm
Dragon wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:39 pm
I think no, because he is told many times about people's feelings about the harm Monsoon has done to them, but he only wanted to focus on the end goal. Jerome and Chibi both told him Monsoon's killings are unforgivable. Bob explained his story of being held hostage since a pup and Sirius BLAMED Bob for being in that situation and undermined it. Orion tells Sirius multiple times of all the friends they lost because of Monsoon. Nonetheless, Sirius went on and on about an endless cycle of revenge and how Ohu stole Monsoon's home so he has the right to be mad.

So... yeah, Sirius ia one stubborn guy xD I think if Monsoon killed more innocences in front of his eyes, he'd change...maybe.
I mean... he is kinda right. XD Monsoon was a cub when Ohu (rightfully) killed his father but they also killed a bunch of innocent cubs, Monsoon's siblings included, and drove them out of their home. He was paying for his father's actions when he was just a kid, I think that would piss anyone off.

I don't think Sirius necessarily disregarded other's suffering under Monsoon, more so that he thought they should be the "bigger person" and stop the chain of revenge. I think he was definitely overly idealistic but he wasn't totally wrong because he was able to partially get through to him despite the challenges working against him.
It is true. It's definitely what makes this arc interesting to dissect. Akakabuto terrorized humans, dogs put a stop to it, but then they went too far in killing his kids, so now the remaining kids are kicked out. Both have done wrong now and this was only to be expected. Sirius tried his best to fix Monsoon when he couldn't fix the others. Some things he did was still really annoying for sure though. His treatment to Bob made me reaaaallllyyy struggle to side with him for a long time :tfw_sirius2:
Yeah Sirius definitely had flaws in his plans and actions. I think that makes him an interesting character though!

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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Dragon » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:33 pm

Wolpard wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:16 pm
Yeah Sirius definitely had flaws in his plans and actions. I think that makes him an interesting character though!
I could be wrong, and I hope I am, but I don't think we're ever going to get another unique character like Sirius again :tfw_orion1:
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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Wolpard » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:36 pm

Dragon wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:33 pm
Wolpard wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:16 pm
Yeah Sirius definitely had flaws in his plans and actions. I think that makes him an interesting character though!
I could be wrong, and I hope I am, but I don't think we're ever going to get another unique character like Sirius again :tfw_orion1:
Unfortunately I agree. :bella3: Honestly Yoshi should be retired anyway, I dont think we're going to get anything that special from Noah.

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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by WolfKing » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:47 pm

Well i'd say it was a complicated situation.

His ideals and goals had good sides and bad sides to them. The bad ones were the aforementioned feeling that they (Ou as a whole) were the real bad guys and all, and his treatment of Bob and almost nonchalant declaration of getting over other Ou veterans and allies deaths. These things made me cringe heavily and uncertain about all of those ideals. Then there's his hostile actions to them who didn't agree with him. I still feel that those words and statements make me feel bad.

The good parts though, was the fact that he all in all meant well, and didn't want anyone to die and actually followed the true Ou ideal of giving a chance and coexist with the enemy, that was missing completely. Even Weed who hypocritically told everyone about these ideals contradicted himself totally. Sirius also surely betrayed Ou army, but he was by no means a true traitor, since he never wanted revenge for being unfairly exiled, but only decided to follow his goal with coexist with the enemy.

Another demonstration is the fact that he saved Orion from being killed by Monsoon, which showed that he truly loved his family even after betraying them.

I've always liked Sirius, he was kind and always meant well. I'm still sad that he's dead, and I just beg that Yoshi will do something about him and Orion so that his death wasn't a waste of a great character. I hate how many characters declared him as "insane", "the epitome of a peace idiot", and "pansy" (the 2 latter ones from Orion) Even after he died Izou and Kin or Tama also make insensitive comments about him.

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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Digsu » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:10 am

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This is by far the nicest way I can put what I think of Sirius and what he did.



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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Arano » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:24 pm

I like Sirius because his actions are complicated too.

It all depends on whether you are a perfectionist on what forgiveness is. If you think blaming someone for something is justified and reasonable, then there is no reason to forgive them right? The Ohu army had no reason to move past or forgive Monsoon's actions because that would be unreasonable (cause ya'know... all the murder).
But then, as Wolpard points out, "Monsoon was a cub when Ohu (rightfully) killed his father but they also killed a bunch of innocent cubs, Monsoon's siblings included, and drove them out of their home. He was paying for his father's actions when he was just a kid"
So the Ohu army can't be forgiven by Monsoon for displacing and condemning him in the first place either.

Sirius took on what was once Weed's pacifism to the next level. Could there be an end to war if the effort was made to quell each others need for revenge and put an end to the cycle. This would never have been a worthy storyline for any other kind of enemy.
Now, if you perceive forgiveness as something that has to be perfect, then this is a scenario you can't morally get along with because the effort required implies forgiveness of something too abhorrent to forgive. I don't think it should have to be framed this way, even though it was. In real life war is never forgiven, instead it is never forgotten in favour of peace as the former is a far worse existence. Both sides yielding in favour of that, I would have understood, as it would be seen as putting the future of Paradise inhabitants first over their need to retaliate. But Sirius struggled as a negotiator and was too problematic to achieve this. He leaned in too far with Monsoon and not enough with Ohu*, and his treatment of Bob as other people have mentioned is bad as well which was a HUGE mistake, given that Bob was an integral part of the scope of Monsoon's depravity.

Idk I just think Yoshi perhaps bit off more philosophical ideas than he could chew on with Sirius and his death was perhaps unavoidable as an end to it in that respect. It's made for interesting conversations though.

*Though I do have my own separate issues with the Ohu army, they're far from squeaky-clean.

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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Leomonade » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:13 pm

I agree on a lot with Arano. And Digsu is also brings up the great point of how Sirius, just like Orion, didn't have any idea how healthy relationships work. From the start, Orion has been way too eager to murder and Sirius has been way too quick to forgive. Neither are healthy.

TLW setting was so good because both "sides" had bad ways of dealing with the problem they were facing.
The Ohu army wanted to get revenge on the bear by launching a suicide attack... They literally didn't care how many of their friends would fall because "they were ready to sacrifice themselves for their goal". How manly stupid! This would have, in no way, honored the ones who died protecting their friends and the new generation. It would more likely be a selfish insult. And in the final battle, Orion was the only one who vocally was ready to admit that this was their selfish desire to pay back lol.

Sirius not being into kamikaze attacking a bear the Ohu army had already abused is valid. Him wanting to look for another alternative where they both can live in peace was smart and good. Him wanting to forgive everything and calling his family evil and bending over backward to please Monsoon was NOT ok.

I mean the Ohu army are hive-minded sheep that follow the loudest scream, and that is Orion now. And I mean.. the only reason they didn't die in the final showdown was because Sirius had confused and softened Monsoon enough, Sirius took hits for the dumbos and kept interrupting the fight, Orion is an OP shounen protag and the fight had hardly had a different outcome if none of the other dogs were around lol.

The ending imo would have been greater if Sirius had only been one of the very many that had died in the final fight. That would have actually caused Orion to think if the "win" they got was actually a win when they lost friends.

Both Sirius' and the Ohu army's ideas and attitudes are the total opposites and neither are that good imo. The saddest part was that neither was willing to budge or even consider the other alternative or work together towards a compromise.

So no, I don't think Sirius was evil. Ohu army on the other hand... Kinda sketchy of them to try to first exile and then imprison and bully their family/friend into submission just because they don't want to fight another war.
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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Hyzenthlay Rose » Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:56 am

Sirius is a selfish psychopath. I know Yoshi wanted us think Sirius was a little beacon of justice with his whole "dogs and bears should be best friends uwu" thing but he's not. He cares more about the Ohu army accepting his abusive relationship with his serial killer boyfriend than he actually does about their safety.

He asked Jerome how he would feel about peace with Monsoon not because he was genuinely concerned about this dog who just lost his wife and children to Monsoon, but because he needs someone to agree with his twisted idea of "peace" And when he asked Chibi, a literal child whose mother was just murdered by Monsoon, Chibi said he wouldn't want to live in peace with his mother's murderer and Sirius loses his shit because this young, traumatized child doesn't want to coexist with a mass murderer.
Also he shows no empathy for Bob, a dog that grew up watching his young siblings get tortured and eventually murdered by Monsoon as children before he ended up as Monsoon's traumatized punching bag into adulthood. Imagine hearing Bob's backstory and thinking, "No you guys are wrong, he's a misunderstood angel who clearly regrets his past actions and wants to change uwu"

I was so relieved when he died. Then GDN came and confirmed that Yoshi wanted us to be on Sirius's side the whole time and I just said "fuck it" and decided everything after GDW wasn't canon.

As a side-note, I miss Bob
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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Gingaddict » Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:23 pm

Sirius's actions as well as Orion's always felt to me like the ultimate story of being the third person in the argument where you could see both where they are coming but ultimately making up your own conclusion over which one was right.

But the biggest problem was Sirius's fight for his justice seemed to boarder on more obsession than anything else he wanted to do. I mean he literally is fighting it even when he's bleeding to death! Also the fact he began to see everyone else around him as an enemy is also uncalled for like he was not even trying to consider anyone else's feelings like it was only his way or no way at all. Though I do the Ohu army themselves were not considering Sirius enough either, at least I saw Orion trying to get Sirius on his side with optimism rather than just saying the same thing over and over, which was also a big problem. He never once tried to say how his way was better, only that everyone else is wrong and he is right.

He just wanted to live a world without any fighting at all but you could see that some kind of balance between being peaceful and fighting back ins needed, especially if you're going to live in the wild. Honestly, he should have been a pet dog instead if he wanted his own kind of peace.
Hyzenthlay Rose wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:56 am
I was so relieved when he died. Then GDN came and confirmed that Yoshi wanted us to be on Sirius's side the whole time and I just said "fuck it" and decided everything after GDW wasn't canon.

As a side-note, I miss Bob
I do like to believe Orion and Co are not canon either! Also I miss Bob too, he did not get a proper ending for his character, kinda of like alot of the characters at the moment!
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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Hyzenthlay Rose » Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:12 am

Gingaddict wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:23 pm
Hyzenthlay Rose wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:56 am
I was so relieved when he died. Then GDN came and confirmed that Yoshi wanted us to be on Sirius's side the whole time and I just said "fuck it" and decided everything after GDW wasn't canon.

As a side-note, I miss Bob
I do like to believe Orion and Co are not canon either! Also I miss Bob too, he did not get a proper ending for his character, kinda of like alot of the characters at the moment!
I do consider Orion and his siblings canon, they were born at the very end of GDW. In my mind TFW is the real sequel and all four siblings grow up to rule Ohu together.
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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Uru » Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:20 pm

Dragon wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:39 pm
Sirius BLAMED Bob for being in that situation and undermined it.
Quick question: where does Sirius do this? Lot of people mention this but I don't remember this scene at all. I can only think one scene where Sirius and Bob talked to each other...

TLW is honestly a huge, but interesting mess. I like how Sirius works and how he has flaws, but I think Takahashi can't write Sirius well. He tries so hard to make Sirius the likeable character and everyone else mean & dumb that it just makes you hate all of the characters.

Sirius is like Weed, BUT he doesn't have charisma of Weed. Due to this no one considers him to be the leader and doesn't listen to him. Weed is also likeable and respected character as he talks to other characters and tries to understand them. Sirius has lot of moments where he could learn and listen, but instead of that they are turned in to jokes or used to make other character look like villain.

Like the scene with Bob: Sirius just kind of ignores Bob and doesn't listen to his story. If Sirius had listened here and showed some compassion it would have worked well. Instead it is shown as joke as Sirius & Shion are wondering why Bob dares to speak ill of Monsoon now...

Secondly, the scene with Jerome. This would have been great scene if it had been played as Sirius being stupid and reminding Jerome about death of his wife and pups, but instead its made like Jerome is wrong there when he mocks Sirius. This would have been great scene if Sirius would have started considering feelings of others etc.

I think the ending would have been very different if Sirius had considered feelings of other and other dogs would have trusted him. Now Sirius behaves like Weed, but he never has really proved himself. When other characters were fighting, they made lof of friends (Gin: Ben, John, Kai brothers, Moss, Benizakura etc. Weed: Jerome, Kyoshiro, Ken, Kagetora, Rocket etc. Orion: Unsai, Bon, Yamabiko, Andy etc.) and those friends were also strong allies with armies or individual strength.
Sirius has Kamakiri brothers who no longer have armies and don't have any special techniques or strengths. It is kinda difficult to have anyone's trust if your only allies are two villains with father/mother issues.

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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Gingaddict » Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:45 pm

Hyzenthlay Rose wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:12 am
Gingaddict wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:23 pm
Hyzenthlay Rose wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:56 am
I was so relieved when he died. Then GDN came and confirmed that Yoshi wanted us to be on Sirius's side the whole time and I just said "fuck it" and decided everything after GDW wasn't canon.

As a side-note, I miss Bob
I do like to believe Orion and Co are not canon either! Also I miss Bob too, he did not get a proper ending for his character, kinda of like alot of the characters at the moment!
I do consider Orion and his siblings canon, they were born at the very end of GDW. In my mind TFW is the real sequel and all four siblings grow up to rule Ohu together.
I do wish this as well in the same way I hoped First Wars would get another series but it seems unlikely
Uru wrote:
Sun Nov 29, 2020 12:20 pm
Dragon wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:39 pm
Sirius BLAMED Bob for being in that situation and undermined it.
Quick question: where does Sirius do this? Lot of people mention this but I don't remember this scene at all. I can only think one scene where Sirius and Bob talked to each other...

TLW is honestly a huge, but interesting mess. I like how Sirius works and how he has flaws, but I think Takahashi can't write Sirius well. He tries so hard to make Sirius the likeable character and everyone else mean & dumb that it just makes you hate all of the characters.

Sirius is like Weed, BUT he doesn't have charisma of Weed. Due to this no one considers him to be the leader and doesn't listen to him. Weed is also likeable and respected character as he talks to other characters and tries to understand them. Sirius has lot of moments where he could learn and listen, but instead of that they are turned in to jokes or used to make other character look like villain.

Like the scene with Bob: Sirius just kind of ignores Bob and doesn't listen to his story. If Sirius had listened here and showed some compassion it would have worked well. Instead it is shown as joke as Sirius & Shion are wondering why Bob dares to speak ill of Monsoon now...

Secondly, the scene with Jerome. This would have been great scene if it had been played as Sirius being stupid and reminding Jerome about death of his wife and pups, but instead its made like Jerome is wrong there when he mocks Sirius. This would have been great scene if Sirius would have started considering feelings of others etc.

I think the ending would have been very different if Sirius had considered feelings of other and other dogs would have trusted him. Now Sirius behaves like Weed, but he never has really proved himself. When other characters were fighting, they made lof of friends (Gin: Ben, John, Kai brothers, Moss, Benizakura etc. Weed: Jerome, Kyoshiro, Ken, Kagetora, Rocket etc. Orion: Unsai, Bon, Yamabiko, Andy etc.) and those friends were also strong allies with armies or individual strength.
Sirius has Kamakiri brothers who no longer have armies and don't have any special techniques or strengths. It is kinda difficult to have anyone's trust if your only allies are two villains with father/mother issues.
I agree, Sirius did lack Weed's charisma a great deal and lack-luster writing made him and everyone else look like an idiot for most of the story.
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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Moxi » Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:29 pm

Hyzenthlay Rose wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:12 am
Gingaddict wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:23 pm
Hyzenthlay Rose wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:56 am
I was so relieved when he died. Then GDN came and confirmed that Yoshi wanted us to be on Sirius's side the whole time and I just said "fuck it" and decided everything after GDW wasn't canon.

As a side-note, I miss Bob
I do like to believe Orion and Co are not canon either! Also I miss Bob too, he did not get a proper ending for his character, kinda of like alot of the characters at the moment!
I do consider Orion and his siblings canon, they were born at the very end of GDW. In my mind TFW is the real sequel and all four siblings grow up to rule Ohu together.
Thats just plane rude and offensive

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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Hyzenthlay Rose » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:03 pm

Moxi wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 6:29 pm
Hyzenthlay Rose wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:12 am
Gingaddict wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 2:23 pm


I do like to believe Orion and Co are not canon either! Also I miss Bob too, he did not get a proper ending for his character, kinda of like alot of the characters at the moment!
I do consider Orion and his siblings canon, they were born at the very end of GDW. In my mind TFW is the real sequel and all four siblings grow up to rule Ohu together.
Thats just plane rude and offensive
Uh, what?
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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Morti » Sun Jan 17, 2021 12:15 pm

Digsu wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:10 am
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This is by far the nicest way I can put what I think of Sirius and what he did.
This sums it all up quite nicely.

But it's also why I love Sirius. He's just a thoroughly messed up character and TLW would have been so good if it had actually explored that, or allowed Sirius to realise that and then grow from it.

I always feel like Sirius is a really good character, he's just in the wrong story. If that makes sense? He needs to be a in a deeper story where he can be explored more a character and be given the chance to grow, change, and realisation how unhealthy some of his ideas are.
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Re: Sirius's actions

Post by Shiruba » Sun Jan 17, 2021 2:48 pm

Sirius should have had his own spin off series. Instead of dying at the end of TLW, he leaves Ou and becomes the leader of the group of like minded dogs. Still though, he was pretty annoying throughout the series with his constant repetition of "let's be friends" and "why do we kill?" speeches.
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