How Would You Fix Sirius?

[SoullessDog]

Same as my "How Would You Fix Weed?" topic in the GDW Forum. How would you fix Sirius? I'm interested to see what people have to say.

[Wolpard]

I wouldn't honestly. I think Sirius is one of the more interesting characters in Ginga. The series is full of same-y tough warrior types, Sirius is a breath of fresh air. Character flaws are what make characters interesting.

[JazzyJazz]

With a rusty pair of hedge clippers.

[SoullessDog]

With a rusty pair of hedge clippers.

I knew you'd say something like that. As soon as I created the topic, I knew it.

[fantachan]

I agree with Wolpard that Sirius made the series more interesting, but if there's something I'd change about the character, I would have him reconsider his ideals of making everyone get along a little more. His ideals would be put to the test, and would make him seriously think about the effect his ideals are having on the Ouu Army and Monsoon...THEN he would make the decision on who he has to support.

He only questioned himself once, and instantly dismissed it. If he questioned his ideals more and (maybe) thought about reconsidering his stance, it would make him a less static and more interesting character. But with the way he was written, he had the same opinion thought the series, didn't change at all, and was an annoying character.

[Leomonade]

I feel like Sirius is an interesting character for sure but he just doesn't fit the series as it is. So either Sirius needs to change or the series needs to change how it works.
Atm Ginga is really too simple to have characters make these deep debates and conversations in a good way. Conversations and debates Sirius' character badly needs.
So either TLW needs to be rewritten to concentrate more on character dialogue or Sirius needs to be toned down quite a lot.

[Wolpard]

I feel like Sirius is an interesting character for sure but he just doesn't fit the series as it is. So either Sirius needs to change or the series needs to change how it works.
Atm Ginga is really too simple to have characters make these deep debates and conversations in a good way. Conversations and debates Sirius' character badly needs.
So either TLW needs to be rewritten to concentrate more on character dialogue or Sirius needs to be toned down quite a lot.

I think this is a good point. I honestly think its TLW that needs to change more. There's a lot of static parts of the story and it feels like Yoshi can't decide who is supposed to be in the "right" in the story either. Yoshi just also doesn't know how to get that deep in his writing in general.

[Leomonade]

I feel like Sirius is an interesting character for sure but he just doesn't fit the series as it is. So either Sirius needs to change or the series needs to change how it works.
Atm Ginga is really too simple to have characters make these deep debates and conversations in a good way. Conversations and debates Sirius' character badly needs.
So either TLW needs to be rewritten to concentrate more on character dialogue or Sirius needs to be toned down quite a lot.

I think this is a good point. I honestly think its TLW that needs to change more. There's a lot of static parts of the story and it feels like Yoshi can't decide who is supposed to be in the "right" in the story either. Yoshi just also doesn't know how to get that deep in his writing in general.

Yup.. I think the only time Yoshi has been able to write main character being wrong and having side characters correct that behavior was in GDW when GB talked to Weed about Koyuki.
Every other time it has been "main character is right no matter what they do and no matter what anyone else thinks".

[Jinto]

Sirius needs fixing? Nah

But for real having different mindset from the rest of the characters isn't really a problem. If anything I'd say it's about the execution. And I don't think it could have been done too much better the same way. Sure the conflict between Sirius and Orion could have been about something else but then the whole plot would need to be remade. The way it was was a stalemate were neither side would back down so there is no much else to add to it. Maybe Sirius could have had a moment were he questions himself and what he was doing. Or maybe spend more time on why Sirius actually wanted to do it. I don't really know what else to add to it

[JazzyJazz]

Fine, to actually answer the question, I’d say he needed to be treated like the villian he is and dealt with accordingly. He’s objectively wrong and his constant interference with taking down an obvious fucking threat to the livelihood of Ohu and all dogkind is straight up treasonous and Ohu should’ve confined this idiot to a cave or just straight up execute him. I wouldn’t even mind his victim-blaming and self-righteous attitude if he was actually seen as being bad for it, which he is. At least he’s dead now and hasn’t popped up in GDN for a while so MAYBE we’re be free of his idiocy.

[YamaDora]

Fine, to actually answer the question, I’d say he needed to be treated like the villian he is and dealt with accordingly. He’s objectively wrong and his constant interference with taking down an obvious fucking threat to the livelihood of Ohu and all dogkind is straight up treasonous and Ohu should’ve confined this idiot to a cave or just straight up execute him. I wouldn’t even mind his victim-blaming and self-righteous attitude if he was actually seen as being bad for it, which he is. At least he’s dead now and hasn’t popped up in GDN for a while so MAYBE we’re be free of his idiocy.

Was Sirius wrong? Depends from who you ask, but personally, I agreed with his ideals. I am also a bit of an idealistic in terms of seeking peaceful coexistence with others.

Did Sirius the right thing? Personally, I think he could have been written far, far better: the way Takahashi has built the world of Ginga into this constant war-zone were everyone are so eager to jump the gun just does not leave much room for idealism like Sirius. Combined with the fact that, well, he wasn't the best written character (I loved the idea of his character and agreed with his ideals) and overall lacking execution of the story, the outcome wasn't the greatest.

In short, his character simply did not work due to the environment he was put in, but it doesn't mean he was a bad/evil character.

[SoullessDog]

I had forgotten that a few people like Sirius as he is, because he's different, he had flaws, he's unique and interesting. It was kind of a surprise, honestly.

@Lemonade, Wolpard, I think you both have a point. Sirius doesn't really fit into TLW, maybe not even Ginga because of how things are.

@Fantachan, I've heard that he pretty much never questions himself, despite the opposition he gets. His own friends and family don't agree with him, but it doesn't stop him. I think he would've been better in TLW had he actually questioned his way of doing things more.

@Jinto I like that. I don't think it was executed as well as it could've been. And it doesn't help how they're portrayed sometimes.

@JazzyJazz To be fair, I was joking or trying to joke when I made that reply, but I'm terrible at it. Sorry for my stupidity. But I do like reading the different opinions. You have good points as well. I don't think Sirius realized how things were, and yet he's portrayed as always being right from what I hear.

All and all, I'm seeing different opinions. Some like Sirius, some don't. Good points, but different ways of fixing the character.

[JazzyJazz]

He WAS wrong. No one in their right mind should ever just believe in changing a psychopath who's made it clear time and time and time again that he WILL kill them and their family and regular tortures other members of their species just for the shits and giggles. Even IF Monsoon were more of a sympathetic villain (which he objectively isn't and nothing will convince me otherwise), like Kaibutsu, Sirius' abuse apologist behavior is not something to glorify or see as good. No "pure, idealistic" person should ever fucking dismiss someone's abuse because "oh, they're just scared to say it to their abusers face so they should shut up", or demand an innocent bystander follow them around to translate the same fucking bullshit over and over again, and yeah Zion didn't have to go with Sirius, but that doesn't change the fact that Sirius never learning the language for himself just so he can carry out his endless cycle of "hunt Monsoon down and beg and whine that HE IS GOOD AND NOT EVUL UWU" just proves that him being right about Monsoon matters more than the lives of others. He's wrong. His ideals are stupid. They have no place in Ginga and good fucking riddance to him.

[Digsu]

Method 1: Acknowledge the facts that his views are problematic, his absolute refusal to listen to differing opinions (to the point where he either shrugs them off or outright reacts to them with immediate hostility) is harmful, especially for a character who's supposed to be a diplomat, and that he comes from a background that means he has extremely twisted views about what mutual love and friendship are all about (his relationship with Akakama, both pre- and post-redemption, has never really been the healthiest possible). Address that he's not flawless and that his plan is extremely risky. Properly explore the fact that he's a well-intentioned guy, but his personal issues make it hard for him to truly see what's right and what's wrong, and he needs to sort out his own issues before he can focus on those of everyone else's. Don't idolize him and put him on a pedestal and just pretend he had everything figured out and everyone who disagreed with him was wrong.

Method 2: Actually make him competent at his job. As it stands, Sirius basically blindly stumbles through his grand quest to redeem Monsoon and the narrative desperately tries to paint him as successful, despite him basically doing the bare minimum while committing almost every mistake possible along the way. Give him an actual plan to establish contact with Monsoon: instead of just screaming "YOU, ME, FRIENDS? :3" at him, actively try to get on his good side to make him listen to you. Learn some basic words in his language. Offer him food as a gift. Don't trespass on his territory all the time. Simple stuff. Actually make him negotiate with Monsoon: as far as he's concerned, there's literally no reason for him to not kill and eat all the dogs, so have Sirius come up with a practical reason for Monsoon to consider a truce with the dogs, buying them more time to regroup and more time for Sirius to try and win Monsoon over. Have Sirius lie if need be, the main thing he should be concerned about is convincing Monsoon to abandon his murder quest even temporarily. Don't have him suddenly run off without notifying Monsoon on the basis that "he's not totally murderous towards the two of us specifically, he's nice now!", or suddenly pounce on Monsoon while playing, causing him to go on a rampage and then lashing out against the dogs who came to save him from the danger he put himself in, or in general do anything of the countless utterly moronic things he does in actual canon. Also, make in unambiguously clear that Monsoon is changing: make us see how he's starting to warm up towards dogs in general and feel remorse for the horrible things he's done (feeling bad for hitting Sirius doesn't count, only caring about people who bend over backwards to please you is no better than not caring about other people at all). And get rid of the idiotic "Monsoon hesitates to kill Sirius because he looks like Gin, who saved him as a cub (but whom he also hates because he killed his dad)". It's stupid, inconsistent, and a blatant example of the narrative having to desperately twist and turn to portray Sirius in a positive light, because his actual words and actions make him seem so heartless and incompetent that it's the only way to even attempt to make him look good.

[Jinto]

Pretty sure Shion wanted to continue helping Sirius by translatin what Monsoon said himself. Don't see how that is abuse

[JazzyJazz]

The abuse I'm referring to is when both Sirius and Zion basically shrugged off Bob and belittled him for having the audacity to not like Monsoon after being abused by him for 5 years. I said Zion didn't have to go if he didn't want to, but, as I said, it doesn't change the fact that Sirius never once stopped to spend a week or two to learn the bear language and send Zion home or anything like that. I'm just saying, if Sirius is so certain that ONLY his life should be forfeit, then why not actively do more to not have Zion in harm's way. It's because Zion's life isn't all that important to him. None of the dog's lives matter, no matter how much Sirius likes to insist that they are. If he did, he would've gotten the hint that maybe trying to aid in the mass murderer who fully intends on killing his family regardless of what he says or does is not worth spending weeks obsessing over.

[Jinto]

Thanks for the clarification

[Leomonade]

Method 1: Acknowledge the facts that his views are problematic, his absolute refusal to listen to differing opinions (to the point where he either shrugs them off or outright reacts to them with immediate hostility) is harmful, especially for a character who's supposed to be a diplomat, and that he comes from a background that means he has extremely twisted views about what mutual love and friendship are all about (his relationship with Akakama, both pre- and post-redemption, has never really been the healthiest possible). Address that he's not flawless and that his plan is extremely risky. Properly explore the fact that he's a well-intentioned guy, but his personal issues make it hard for him to truly see what's right and what's wrong, and he needs to sort out his own issues before he can focus on those of everyone else's. Don't idolize him and put him on a pedestal and just pretend he had everything figured out and everyone who disagreed with him was wrong.

Method 2: Actually make him competent at his job. As it stands, Sirius basically blindly stumbles through his grand quest to redeem Monsoon and the narrative desperately tries to paint him as successful, despite him basically doing the bare minimum while committing almost every mistake possible along the way. Give him an actual plan to establish contact with Monsoon: instead of just screaming "YOU, ME, FRIENDS? :3" at him, actively try to get on his good side to make him listen to you. Learn some basic words in his language. Offer him food as a gift. Don't trespass on his territory all the time. Simple stuff. Actually make him negotiate with Monsoon: as far as he's concerned, there's literally no reason for him to not kill and eat all the dogs, so have Sirius come up with a practical reason for Monsoon to consider a truce with the dogs, buying them more time to regroup and more time for Sirius to try and win Monsoon over. Have Sirius lie if need be, the main thing he should be concerned about is convincing Monsoon to abandon his murder quest even temporarily. Don't have him suddenly run off without notifying Monsoon on the basis that "he's not totally murderous towards the two of us specifically, he's nice now!", or suddenly pounce on Monsoon while playing, causing him to go on a rampage and then lashing out against the dogs who came to save him from the danger he put himself in, or in general do anything of the countless utterly moronic things he does in actual canon. Also, make in unambiguously clear that Monsoon is changing: make us see how he's starting to warm up towards dogs in general and feel remorse for the horrible things he's done (feeling bad for hitting Sirius doesn't count, only caring about people who bend over backwards to please you is no better than not caring about other people at all). And get rid of the idiotic "Monsoon hesitates to kill Sirius because he looks like Gin, who saved him as a cub (but whom he also hates because he killed his dad)". It's stupid, inconsistent, and a blatant example of the narrative having to desperately twist and turn to portray Sirius in a positive light, because his actual words and actions make him seem so heartless and incompetent that it's the only way to even attempt to make him look good.

Big agree for the points you made!

I think the Riki'd bloodline's worship needs to go or be toned down a lot. The Ohu army has been a mess since he passed. The army has been just kinda floating around after completing their original goal and all they do is jump from 1 mess to another.

For Sirius to work, the Ohu army can't be the sorry excuse it is in TLW. Everyone seems to have lost their minds. It would be in character for Orion and a couple of others to just charge into a battle without the plan but all of them? What the hell? How on earth could their final plan be "Let's just chase and try kill Monsoon. Even if all of us die, it's fine because we die with honor." -bullshit!? The young and hotblooded can think like that but Gin? Akame? all the oldies who have fought multiple battles?? What the hell?! They just don't care about to future of the paradise at all anymore??

They don't have to agree with Sirius or his methods but they don't suddenly have to turn hostile or downright abusive towards him either!
If I saw someone I care about suddenly do something off I would take them aside and TALK TO THEM. I think in canon Orion was the one who talked with Sirius the most even when they had extremely clashing opinions...

[YamaDora]

Method 1: Acknowledge the facts that his views are problematic, his absolute refusal to listen to differing opinions (to the point where he either shrugs them off or outright reacts to them with immediate hostility) is harmful, especially for a character who's supposed to be a diplomat, and that he comes from a background that means he has extremely twisted views about what mutual love and friendship are all about (his relationship with Akakama, both pre- and post-redemption, has never really been the healthiest possible). Address that he's not flawless and that his plan is extremely risky. Properly explore the fact that he's a well-intentioned guy, but his personal issues make it hard for him to truly see what's right and what's wrong, and he needs to sort out his own issues before he can focus on those of everyone else's. Don't idolize him and put him on a pedestal and just pretend he had everything figured out and everyone who disagreed with him was wrong.

Method 2: Actually make him competent at his job. As it stands, Sirius basically blindly stumbles through his grand quest to redeem Monsoon and the narrative desperately tries to paint him as successful, despite him basically doing the bare minimum while committing almost every mistake possible along the way. Give him an actual plan to establish contact with Monsoon: instead of just screaming "YOU, ME, FRIENDS? :3" at him, actively try to get on his good side to make him listen to you. Learn some basic words in his language. Offer him food as a gift. Don't trespass on his territory all the time. Simple stuff. Actually make him negotiate with Monsoon: as far as he's concerned, there's literally no reason for him to not kill and eat all the dogs, so have Sirius come up with a practical reason for Monsoon to consider a truce with the dogs, buying them more time to regroup and more time for Sirius to try and win Monsoon over. Have Sirius lie if need be, the main thing he should be concerned about is convincing Monsoon to abandon his murder quest even temporarily. Don't have him suddenly run off without notifying Monsoon on the basis that "he's not totally murderous towards the two of us specifically, he's nice now!", or suddenly pounce on Monsoon while playing, causing him to go on a rampage and then lashing out against the dogs who came to save him from the danger he put himself in, or in general do anything of the countless utterly moronic things he does in actual canon. Also, make in unambiguously clear that Monsoon is changing: make us see how he's starting to warm up towards dogs in general and feel remorse for the horrible things he's done (feeling bad for hitting Sirius doesn't count, only caring about people who bend over backwards to please you is no better than not caring about other people at all). And get rid of the idiotic "Monsoon hesitates to kill Sirius because he looks like Gin, who saved him as a cub (but whom he also hates because he killed his dad)". It's stupid, inconsistent, and a blatant example of the narrative having to desperately twist and turn to portray Sirius in a positive light, because his actual words and actions make him seem so heartless and incompetent that it's the only way to even attempt to make him look good.

Thank you for putting it into words better than I could have. Again, it all can be summed as "the potential is there, but it as seriously underutilized and badly written".

(and it doesn't help that Takahashi's views in certain things can be...a bit dated/screwed)

[Bonisfab]

I wouldn't fix Sirius in any way. He's different, has flaws and is actually an interesting character. I would fix the Ohu army instead. Their attitude towards Sirius was awful to look at. In the end I didn't even want to root for them and hoped Monsoon would win

Just say good morning to Sirius damn it