Takahashi and Dog Fighting

[Wolpard]

One of the most controversial things about Ginga and Takahashi's other works that keeps me from recommending it to friends is its glorification of dog fighting. Not just in Ginga but it's a big thing in his other works such as Shiroi Senshi Yamato and Byakuren no Fang. At the very least, Ginga doesn't spend too much on dog fighting itself, and primarily only in GNG (though the training at the beginning with Gohei is also pretty abusive so it gets some points docked from that too). I understand these are works of fiction. The dogs have human-level sentience, even in series where they do not talk. But it seems pretty clear that Takahashi supports dog fighting- at least the Japanese version of it.

Now, I know Japan does not have the best reputation when it comes to animal care, but I've also heard some mixed things when it comes to Japanese dog fighting. Some sources I've found said that it's similar to Western dog fights in terms of brutality- it just happens to be legal and have regulations, such as requiring a vet to be on site. Other sources have said things like the dogs aren't even allowed to BITE each other, which doesn't seem very likely (especially since dogs bite each other when they are playing too, lol). I know that they aren't allowed to make sounds like growling or whining, but that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't bloodshed. If anyone has good, reliable sources on dog fighting in Japan, I would greatly appreciate it. Or even like... if Takahashi himself has made any comments/discussion of it.

I would hate to think that the author of my childhood manga supports actual animal abuse so I'm looking for any answers on the subject that could clear things up. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has thought of this.

[Dragon]

I remember googling about it myself some time ago, because it was hard to believe something like Yamato being a thing. At first, all I could find was the 'they don't bite or anything, the winner just scares the loser into submission' or something like that. Googling again, I'm finding pictures of Tosas sinking their teeth into each other, a bit of blood on them, and some old guys standing on the side ring just like in Yamato ...
(Little warning for dog fighting violence .. ironic to say because of the series we all like, but y'know what I mean lol)
https://www.newsweek.com/2016/09/09/jap ... 94843.html

There's a video with more pictures. It sounds similar to Yamato. In small rural areas, they hold tournaments. The two dogs enter the ring with a ton of people screaming and cheering, and then they bite into each other and whoever yells loses. Then like 6 people have to come help separate the dogs and a bunch of other complex stuff to stop the biting, and then .. yeah. whoever didn't yelp wins. There are those who have died, but I guess they still have a doctor nearby to try saving any with serious injuries x:

I had no clue animal rights laws were so bad in Japan ... what a shame \: ...

[Digsu]

To give Yoshi (and the Japanese in general) some credit, Japanese dogfighting isn't quite as bad as Western dogfighting, since the fighters getting badly injured or killed is not a desired outcome and the dogs are well cared for outside the ring.

Yoshi also dramatizes the fights quite a bit in his works (obviously, he's making action manga after all) and this is what real Tosa fights look like. (Two dogs fighting each other and some blood towards the very end.)



Aaaand then onto the negatives of the whole thing.

Regardless of how relatively safe the dogs are compared to Western dog fights, watching people pit animals against each other for entertainment is... well, a bit sickening, really. They actually have an audience in there, people who presumably paid to be able to be there (according to the video title, it was in the Tosa Inu Park museum, more on that later), and you can hear that they're clearly having fun, laughing and generally sounding amused. I'm pretty sure I even heard what sounded like a baby or a child at one point - meaning that someone figured that watching two dogs fighting until one submits would make for a nice, wholesome family activity. Why? Just... why?

Well, we might actually have some answers. In an interview from 2011 (included in the Finnish Byakuren no Fang volume 2), Yoshi himself said this:

I was gathering material on dog fighting in Aomori and Shikoku and that's how I got the idea of making a dog manga that's a bit different from Yamato. Fighting dogs really don't make a sound even if they're bleeding. The dogs I saw in Aomori were particularly massive. The yokozunas were almost like lions. They looked more like St. Bernards. I realized that I could never top them. :-D When these giant dogs enter the ring, they really look happy. Like the martial artist Kid Yamamoto. They really do love fighting. When they bite into their opponents, wildly spinning around, it's easy to see why they're known by the name "Spinning Hell". They really do that.

Apparently, the Japanese believe that not only are Tosa dogs not bothered by fighting, they enjoy it, similar to how shepherds love herding or hunting dogs love hunting. The people who support Tosa dog fights don't enjoy the idea of abusing animals, they simply don't see it as abuse in the first place. This simultaneously makes the whole thing better and worse: the good thing is that they aren't watching the fights because they enjoy seeing animals hurt, but the bad thing is that they consider this normal and don't think the dogs are hurting in the first place.

Back onto the site that video was filmed at, the Tosa Inu Park museum. According to their website, they were forced to shut down in 2017 by a court order, though according to a news article I found it was unrelated to the whole dog fighting thing and was due to debt and bankruptcy - which is probably a good thing on its own because that implies that people just weren't interested in supporting them anymore (shame about the actual museum part, though, a place dedicated to the history of Tosas without the dog fighting would have been cool). The large amount of dislikes on that video coupled with the comments being disabled also implies that most people - probably the younger generations - aren't as okay with the practice as they used to be, which hopefully means it'll eventually die out or at least become wholly illegal. Though the fact that the Tosa Inu Park has announcements on their website in English is a bit worrying... were foreign tourists actually a big part of their customer base? That's a bit of a scary thought.

Finally, it's probably telling that BnF is to date the only one of Yoshi's works where the Finnish editions actually have disclaimers attached that basically go "look, we 100% don't support the things going on in this story and if you actually see someone doing this in real life, call the goddamn police". It's definitely an... unusual subject matter from a Western point of view, to put it mildly, and I suspect it's one of the reasons SSY is one of the few of Yoshi's works the Finnish publisher hasn't even touched over the years (it's oldness and length probably being the "official" reasons, but still.)

tldr; It's definitely bad, but some people, Yoshi included, don't think it's bad and simply think of it as dogs enjoying doing what they were bred to do.

Whoopsie-daisy, that ended up being longer than expected.

[Wolpard]

I remember googling about it myself some time ago, because it was hard to believe something like Yamato being a thing....

Yeah, I saw that article, but I also found articles that implied the exact opposite such as this one. It made research a bit difficult when articles were saying completely different things and none of them had much footage as proof. Though, to be a snobby westerner, I was a little hesitant about taking the Japanese side of things too literally because I know how much misinformation is in Japan about animal welfare (One of the worst first-world countries when it comes to the exotic pet trade). I know the exotic pet trade is linked to the Yakuza, which makes it really dangerous for activists to speak out against it, so I'm also wondering if there's Yakuza ties to dogfighting too or if it truly is a widespread belief that its harmless and fun for the dogs.

To give Yoshi (and the Japanese in general) some credit, Japanese dogfighting isn't quite as bad as Western dogfighting...

Thank you for the video! I feel like this is something I was looking for, because it's hard to go off anecdote when there's so much conflicting information online.

I had the impression that it was not QUITE as brutal as Western dog fights, considering all the rules as well as a vet being required to be on site (though I would hope a vet would be more in tune with what is and isn't abusive, but I guess vets don't necessarily need to be experts on animal behavior and welfare outside of physical injuries and health). Though it isn't really just dogs pushing each other around and trying to dominate each other either. They do seem to stop it when blood starts being shed, but that doesn't make it okay.

It does sound like its not with ill intention, but it sucks that its still supported. Tradition should not be an excuse to abuse animals (even unintentionally), similarly to Spanish bull fighting which shouldn't be done today either, but still is (though Japanese dog fighting doesn't seem to be nearly as bad).

[Troll Berserker]

Both dogs on the video are super skinny. You can see their ribs, hip bones and spines, they are unhealthy underweight...

I know it's a work of fiction and honestly don't mind reading about fictional sentient dogs in badass fight clubs, but if you put a little effort the real life dogfights could as well be replaced by something else.
Is it me or Ginga could use it's popularity as dog-centered manga to raise awareness about dog health and animal welfare? We've only seen abandonment, abusive owners are a rarity and it's mostly dogs being abusive towards each other. Dogs are nursed back to health by humans but they are more humans ex machina plot device.
I see no crtiticism towards Gohei who's a sick dog beating bastard, not only by his training but also on Don. Heck, he narration even praises his training several times. Some dogs get abused in their backstories but this is never confronted and seems so weird and unreal. Human disrespect and abuse is shown with no commentary and humans are never ever confronted about their abusive ways (they are aither killed like soldiers or Hougen's owner or eventualy praised like Gohei). We've yet to see a puppy mill or dogs being forced to fight.

Also this is why it pains me to read Hanako. She could've lived if she had been neutered and given healthcare when she needed...

[Digsu]

Is it me or Ginga could use it's popularity as dog-centered manga to raise awareness about dog health and animal welfare?

Also this is why it pains me to read Hanako. She could've lived if she had been neutered and given healthcare when she needed...

I think you answered your own question there. I know Yoshi means well, but as shown in Hanako he's not exactly the most well-educated person on dog needs himself - which isn't necessarily his own fault because attitudes like that are common in Japan. For example, the GDW artbook has an interview with Yoshi and the vet he goes to (yes, the guy who took care of Hanako), and not only does the vet not say anything criticizing Yoshi's treatment of Hanako, at one point he says he owns labs himself and that he believes that "labs aren't a breed that need to be walked". Again, this is coming from a vet.

A manga series about proper dog care is a good idea, but unfortunately I don't think Yoshi is the right person to do it.

[Troll Berserker]

I mean nothing like a popular dog-centered manga would be more perfect to raise awareness but unfortunately he lacks the knowledge himself. I know it from experience that many poeple, especially older, refuse to take modern facts because "that's how it's always been done so what's your problem".
Well Ron from Lonely Ron was unhappy because he was kept in a yard and not walked and that's probably the only case of your everyday mistreating. I'm not sure who wrote the script for Lonely Ron tho.

[Digsu]

I mean nothing like a popular dog-centered manga would be more perfect to raise awareness but unfortunately he lacks the knowledge himself. I know it from experience that many poeple, especially older, refuse to take modern facts because "that's how it's always been done so what's your problem".
Well Ron from Lonely Ron was unhappy because he was kept in a yard and not walked and that's probably the only case of your everyday mistreating. I'm not sure who wrote the script for Lonely Ron tho.

Yoshi writes all his stories himself (aside from Fang and Shounen to Inu/Ginga no Inutachi, which he only did the art for), including Lonely Ron. He does occasionally take jabs at poor dog care, like Ron disliking his small yard and Sasuke saying it's one of the reasons he left his owners the second time or kennels mass producing dogs in horrible conditions (Hougen's backstory in GDW and especially German's backstory in Lassie). He doesn't have to be ignorant of all the problems associated with poor pet care, after all.

[Akame]

where I'm glad that Yoshi shows these negative things ^ in a poor light to discourage readers from supporting that kind of ethic, I feel that the dog-fighting thing is kind of a...cultural thing? like, it's not seen as a negative thing to Japanese (it's not always seen as negative in the west either) but it seems to be a kind of recognised sport? I don't like it at all, even if it being more established means the conditions aren't usually as bad as in western dog-fighting rings. it makes for a good story (like the tournament arcs in Dragon Ball), seeing as the animals are anthropomorphised by being of human intelligence among themselves-- but I think the fact the fighting is organised by humans in-world makes it worse. it's not like a tournament arranged by the dogs, despite them being intelligent and able to make their own decisions. it's just the same as real world dog fighting, where the animal has no choice and is usually cruelly trained.

I would actually be more okay with it if instead of being arranged by the humans, the dog-fighting stories were arranged by the dogs themselves, it would give them their own culture instead of being influenced by humans, who have such a small part in the story. if they had their own fighting tournament style with their own rules? (I might make an RPG in the RP section on this that could be fun!)

I was also put off GNG by Gohei's tactics. it's outdated and cruel, and the fact Gin becomes superpowered in part thanks to the nasty ways Gohei "trains" him, it's just not very good practice. BUT, again, I think when it comes down to it, it shows Yoshi's age/beliefs being outdated and that's all you can say about it. my own mams bf, a similar age to Yoshi, would say that hitting an animal is the only way to train it.

[Digsu]

I don't like it at all, even if it being more established means the conditions aren't usually as bad as in western dog-fighting rings. it makes for a good story (like the tournament arcs in Dragon Ball), seeing as the animals are anthropomorphised by being of human intelligence among themselves-- but I think the fact the fighting is organised by humans in-world makes it worse. it's not like a tournament arranged by the dogs, despite them being intelligent and able to make their own decisions. it's just the same as real world dog fighting, where the animal has no choice and is usually cruelly trained.

I would actually be more okay with it if instead of being arranged by the humans, the dog-fighting stories were arranged by the dogs themselves, it would give them their own culture instead of being influenced by humans, who have such a small part in the story. if they had their own fighting tournament style with their own rules? (I might make an RPG in the RP section on this that could be fun!)

I see what you mean, but tackling a "dogs rebel against humans' poor treatment of them" plot like that could potentially just create more questions than it answers. If the dogs in-story acknowledge that being forced to fight for human entertainment is wrong, then why are they okay with humans forcing them to breed, or selling their children, or being forced into doing jobs like guarding and hunting? There's also the issue of it just not being bad in-universe - Yoshi believes that fighting dogs are happiest when fighting, so of course the fighting dogs in his stories love fighting and don't view it as a bad thing.

Also I don't think Gohei's training methods are intended to be taken at face value - it's just the Ginga version of the age-old "protagonist is forced to undergo hellish training that makes them super powerful" trope, just for dogs. Yoshi's essay in GDW 37 is about his family's dog killing a chicken of theirs when he was a kid and his father beating it up with a chain for it, and how he wanted to stop him but couldn't because "[he] was deathly afraid of [his] father". He may be old-fashioned in a lot of things but he probably doesn't actually think that beating dogs up is a good thing.

[TenderVulture]

The worst part (other than the animal abuse, obviously), is the toxic masculinity the boys learn from the other men involved in dogfighting. Throughout SSY and BNF, there are multiple instances of boys using their dogs to bully others or holding unauthorized fights where the dogs get severely injured to settle their differences.

[Dragon]

Yoshi's essay in GDW 37 is about his family's dog killing a chicken of theirs when he was a kid and his father beating it up with a chain for it, and how he wanted to stop him but couldn't because "[he] was deathly afraid of [his] father". He may be old-fashioned in a lot of things but he probably doesn't actually think that beating dogs up is a good thing.

Aw...

[Wolpard]

The worst part (other than the animal abuse, obviously), is the toxic masculinity the boys learn from the other men involved in dogfighting. Throughout SSY and BNF, there are multiple instances of boys using their dogs to bully others or holding unauthorized fights where the dogs get severely injured to settle their differences.

Yeah, Yoshi's work is pumped with testosterone. Not a good look especially when accompanied with the animal abuse.

[TenderVulture]

The worst part (other than the animal abuse, obviously), is the toxic masculinity the boys learn from the other men involved in dogfighting. Throughout SSY and BNF, there are multiple instances of boys using their dogs to bully others or holding unauthorized fights where the dogs get severely injured to settle their differences.

Yeah, Yoshi's work is pumped with testosterone. Not a good look especially when accompanied with the animal abuse.

I feel so bad for Makoto in BNF. All he’s got for male role models are his drunk, irresponsible father who loves him but hits him when he shows any weakness and continuously fails to keep his promises and the other guys at the heya who do nothing to show Makoto what a man is actually supposed to be like.

And let’s not forget the time Makoto loosed his friend’s fighting dog and the dog got its guts ripped out on what was supposed to be a walk.