Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Kaiken »

Doragon wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:21 am
Kaiken wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:07 amOrion actually not wanting to be leader and saying it like that is way more Out of character, than him being polite.
Besides, every leader ALWAYS say they don't want to be leader. Both in fiction and reality, so if someone (not over enthusiastically) says ''ah, nah, I don't wanna be leader'' they most certainly do! It's psychology.
These are pretty bold assumptions you have, without any strong evidence from the manga. All we have is not one, but two actual instances where Orion says that he is not going to be the next leader of Ohu. It's not faking or anything, there's no deeper psychology behind it (this is Takahashi, after all). He is just not a leader type of character.
One does not need to understand the psychology to include these lines. It comes natural. It doesn't mean this is planned as deep psychological connection. It's just that EVERY WANNABE-LEADER ALWAYS will deny their wish to lead.
If he really didn't want to be leader, no one wouldn't even bring up the topic.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by YamaDora »

Kaiken wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:49 amOne does not need to understand the psychology to include these lines. It comes natural. It doesn't mean this is planned as deep psychological connection. It's just that EVERY WANNABE-LEADER ALWAYS will deny their wish to lead.
If he really didn't want to be leader, no one wouldn't even bring up the topic.
Since Orion and Sirius are Weed's sons (who's Rigel?) the dogs assume one of them will be the next leader after Weed. If Orion was going to be the next leader and he wanted it, no one would bring it up since that's what he's expected to be - but because he doesn't want to be a leader, of course they bring it up.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

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Kaiken wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:07 am Orion actually not wanting to be leader and saying it like that is way more Out of character, than him being polite.
Not really. I can think of a few reasons why Orion genuinely wouldn't want to be the next leader.

-He's not interested in "politics". He doesn't want to deal with stuff like diplomacy, he just wants to fight, which is why he'd rather be an ordinary soldier. It's also probably worth noting that he denies wanting to be leader in GDWO volume 21 after hearing and seeing that a true leader doesn't fight in the front lines, but stands back and gives his troops orders from a safe distance (even though this does seem like the opposite of what Ohu leaders usually do...). I'd imagine he wants absolutely none of that.

-He wants to do everything on his own or, at most, with nobody but his best friends at his side. The most recent instance we've seen of this is him disagreeing with the old Ohu soldiers going to fight Monsoon - whether it's because he just wants to hog all the fighting for himself or because he's even more unwilling to let unnecessary casualties happen than Gin and Weed, it's something that would be fairly detrimental to a leader of a giant army. I honestly can't imagine him going off and gathering several hundred pet dogs as reinforcements like Gin in the Hougen arc or Weed in the Russian dogs arc.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Kasi »

Thanks Fanta!
You got the chapter out so fast I'm surprised you thought you procrastinated on it XD

I really liked this chapter too, the art and atmosphere I agree was well done. A lot of development was covered too which is good. I'm glad Chibi has not forgotten what happened to his mother when he was younger. It'll be interesting to see what he continues to think about the Monsoon issue.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

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Kasi wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:40 am I really liked this chapter too, the art and atmosphere I agree was well done. A lot of development was covered too which is good. I'm glad Chibi has not forgotten what happened to his mother when he was younger. It'll be interesting to see what he continues to think about the Monsoon issue.
Now that you mention it, it is a bit odd we haven't seen Sirius and Chibi discuss the whole "Monsoon killed your mother but he's totally a good guy deep down" thing yet. :THOT:

Maybe Yoshi just wants to focus on the Orion/Sirius drama right now but that does seem like a fairly big elephant in the room.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

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Digsu wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:52 am
Kasi wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:40 am I really liked this chapter too, the art and atmosphere I agree was well done. A lot of development was covered too which is good. I'm glad Chibi has not forgotten what happened to his mother when he was younger. It'll be interesting to see what he continues to think about the Monsoon issue.
Now that you mention it, it is a bit odd we haven't seen Sirius and Chibi discuss the whole "Monsoon killed your mother but he's totally a good guy deep down" thing yet. :THOT:

Maybe Yoshi just wants to focus on the Orion/Sirius drama right now but that does seem like a fairly big elephant in the room.
From the pictures in the raw, it might be discussed in the next chapter, or they're just talking about something else entirely... haha
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Kaiken »

Orion is still young, full of energy and hot-headed. Of course he wants action. He will be leader later on and I bet, once he has fully grown in mind and has completed his, hmm, education he's got way more troop gathering potential than Weed.
Doragon wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:21 am
Kaiken wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:49 amOne does not need to understand the psychology to include these lines. It comes natural. It doesn't mean this is planned as deep psychological connection. It's just that EVERY WANNABE-LEADER ALWAYS will deny their wish to lead.
If he really didn't want to be leader, no one wouldn't even bring up the topic.
Since Orion and Sirius are Weed's sons (who's Rigel?) the dogs assume one of them will be the next leader after Weed. If Orion was going to be the next leader and he wanted it, no one would bring it up since that's what he's expected to be - but because he doesn't want to be a leader, of course they bring it up.
Just because Weed has other sons doesn't mean any of them can lead. They're not as strong and not as important as Orion. Orion is The Protagonist.
Gin had two siblings, Hiyan and Giyan who were no leaders.
Weed had two siblings, Yukimura and Joe, who also were no leaders and Joe only played a secondary role. Rigel and Sirius will both be Joe. Ginga is so predictable.

Plus, they determine the leader like ''you've outgrown me, ur the leader now. Congrats, now bow everyone!'' and Jerome, Gin and Akame have all stated that Orion has outgrown Weed. Once Orion defeats some big scale enemy, like Monsoon (and probably lets him go, just for the sake of making his bro happy, he'll have ''outgrown them mentally'' and boom - Ori's the new leader. The end. Last war. :P4:
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

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Kaiken wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:26 pmJust because Weed has other sons doesn't mean any of them can lead. They're not as strong and not as important as Orion. Orion is The Protagonist.
Gin had two siblings, Hiyan and Giyan who were no leaders.
Weed had two siblings, Yukimura and Joe, who also were no leaders and Joe only played a secondary role. Rigel and Sirius will both be Joe. Ginga is so predictable.
Gin's siblings were not trained bear hounds from what we know, and the focus in GNG was always on Gin anyway. Also, "Hiyan" and "Giyan" are not their names, that is just a mistranslation based on the sounds they make when Gohee kicks them. Yukimura was the leader of the his foster father's pack when he was paralyzed, and Joe was the leader of his hunting group. They were not Gin's predecessors because they got separated from their family when they were little. Had Sakura not believed the lies told her and left Ohu, Yukimura or Joe might had become supreme commander instead of Weed. The fact is, we don't know what would happened if things didn't go as we know them now.
Orion is not the protagonist. Orion and Sirius are the protagonists. Both have got pretty much equally same amount of focus and growth over the series, specially in The Last Wars.
Kaiken wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:26 pmPlus, they determine the leader like ''you've outgrown me, ur the leader now. Congrats, now bow everyone!'' and Jerome, Gin and Akame have all stated that Orion has outgrown Weed. Once Orion defeats some big scale enemy, like Monsoon (and probably lets him go, just for the sake of making his bro happy, he'll have ''outgrown them mentally'' and boom - Ori's the new leader. The end. Last war. :P4
No, they don't do that. Gin only became the leader because Riki died (and he was Riki's son). Gin put Weed to a test, and he passed that test and became the new leader.
And since when Gin and Akame have said that? Because I don't remember that at all.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

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Doragon wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 6:19 pm
Kaiken wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:26 pmJust because Weed has other sons doesn't mean any of them can lead. They're not as strong and not as important as Orion. Orion is The Protagonist.
Gin had two siblings, Hiyan and Giyan who were no leaders.
Weed had two siblings, Yukimura and Joe, who also were no leaders and Joe only played a secondary role. Rigel and Sirius will both be Joe. Ginga is so predictable.
Gin's siblings were not trained bear hounds from what we know, and the focus in GNG was always on Gin anyway. Also, "Hiyan" and "Giyan" are not their names, that is just a mistranslation based on the sounds they make when Gohee kicks them. Yukimura was the leader of the his foster father's pack when he was paralyzed, and Joe was the leader of his hunting group. They were not Gin's predecessors because they got separated from their family when they were little. Had Sakura not believed the lies told her and left Ohu, Yukimura or Joe might had become supreme commander instead of Weed. The fact is, we don't know what would happened if things didn't go as we know them now.
Orion is not the protagonist. Orion and Sirius are the protagonists. Both have got pretty much equally same amount of focus and growth over the series, specially in The Last Wars.
Kaiken wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:26 pmPlus, they determine the leader like ''you've outgrown me, ur the leader now. Congrats, now bow everyone!'' and Jerome, Gin and Akame have all stated that Orion has outgrown Weed. Once Orion defeats some big scale enemy, like Monsoon (and probably lets him go, just for the sake of making his bro happy, he'll have ''outgrown them mentally'' and boom - Ori's the new leader. The end. Last war. :P4
No, they don't do that. Gin only became the leader because Riki died (and he was Riki's son). Gin put Weed to a test, and he passed that test and became the new leader.
And since when Gin and Akame have said that? Because I don't remember that at all.
I know that it's not their real names. Why are you pointing that out? You're currently leaving a rather arrogant impression on yourself. Don't do that. It's not very nice.
Those are nothing. Hadn't Yukimura's fake father been paralyzed Yuki wouldn't be leader. Even if he would, it's just a tiny group. It means nothing. Even more nothing means Joe leading hunting party. It has absolute zero significance and has nothing to do with leadership and it's qualities.
Nope, not Joe, but Yuki really would have had a higher chance of becoming boss instead of Weed. Yet, that has nothing to do with Orion's leadership topic.
No. Sirius is not the protagonist. He's one of the main characters, but he's most definitely not a protagonist, nor in GDWO, nor in GTLW. GDWO is even named after ORION.

Gin became the next leader because he proved to be strong, even stronger than Riki. Or eaqually at least. Had he not, Ben or Sniper would have become the next leader, because the leader didn't know about Sniper's threachery.
Again, Weed ''passed'' just because of his qualities. Those qualities were greater than Gin's, so he was better.
Akame said it when he told Orion to practise with bamboo, and Gin said it when they were spending time together/talking/whatever.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Arano »

Kaiken and Doragon - Stop arguing please. This keeps happening between you two and it needs to stop.

Kaiken I know that there might be a language barrier sometimes but you need to at least yield when others give you facts about a subject you are talking about.
Additionally, debating is all well and good if you're at least willing to take on board others opinions. In this context you are not an authority on how characters should be perceived by everyone else. What you feel are qualities in a character is not the same for someone else. I personally think Orion is the shittiest leader and is nothing like Riki, for example. That doesn't mean I'm right, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong either - that's my perception of the character.

Orion and Sirius are the main protagonists of the story, and are deliberate conflicting political characters. As this story goes on I have no doubt people will be divided right to the very end, so can we all please just keep that in mind when debating things in here and keep on topic as much as possible. If you want to debate a very specific thing, you're free to make a separate topic about it where everyone can weigh in. This topic is meant to be for TLW spoiler discussion only so let's please keep it that way.

-

Rigel is a nice equilibrium to me at this point though, I want him to get more involved again. Rigel is the background perfect balance of both character types, if things went to shit in the manga and he ended up being leader? I would not be mad.

Thank you for the recent chapter, Kasi and Fanta (I'm late to the party on this one). The exchange between Monsoon and Sirius was a bit... juvenile (I can't think of a more appropriate word right now) to my liking, but I get it. The ol' 'looking back' trope was a surprise haha.

Chibi's growth in tandem with Monsoons progression with Sirius will be interesting. I don't want Chibi to completely forgive him for killing his mother in the end though, like it never mattered.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

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Arano wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:18 pm
Orion and Sirius are the main protagonists of the story, and are deliberate conflicting political characters. As this story goes on I have no doubt people will be divided right to the very end, so can we all please just keep that in mind when debating things in here and keep on topic as much as possible. If you want to debate a very specific thing, you're free to make a separate topic about it where everyone can weigh in.
I like this idea o: as long as things stay civil, of course xD
I'm always up for hearing people's different views of Sirius vs Orion and such, so this idea seem like a perfect solution.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

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Dragon wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:56 pm
Arano wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 9:18 pm
Orion and Sirius are the main protagonists of the story, and are deliberate conflicting political characters. As this story goes on I have no doubt people will be divided right to the very end, so can we all please just keep that in mind when debating things in here and keep on topic as much as possible. If you want to debate a very specific thing, you're free to make a separate topic about it where everyone can weigh in.
I like this idea o: as long as things stay civil, of course xD
I'm always up for hearing people's different views of Sirius vs Orion and such, so this idea seem like a perfect solution.
Yes, though civil can still get heated but I feel it's quite unavoidable with this! Takahashi knows what he is doing XD but at least in a separate topic it can be contained, and if people don't want the stress of that particular debate then they can just not look/ignore the topic completely! Rather than come to the spoiler thread and have no choice but to see it/scroll through to get what they actually want :/

Debating and doing deep dives into things is fun for a lot of people, and I don't want to stifle people in expressing that. But if it can be done in proper topics that is a step in the right direction I think. I've just made one specifically for Orion vs Sirius discussion at least, but please everyone feel free to create a topic for something specific if you think it's a thread worth creating/if you think a lot of people would like to contribute to it.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by fantachan »

I'm just... gonna leave this chapter here...

http://fantasscans.blogspot.com/2018/08 ... r-156.html

I have a strong feeling that since the Ouu Army hasn't been informed about Chibi's lineage, they're gonna be in for a rude awakening once Chibi wakes up...
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

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fantachan wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 5:29 am I'm just... gonna leave this chapter here...

http://fantasscans.blogspot.com/2018/08 ... r-156.html

I have a strong feeling that since the Ouu Army hasn't been informed about Chibi's lineage, they're gonna be in for a rude awakening once Chibi wakes up...
"Don't talk about awful things like murder!"
Yeah, how dare you suggest you want to kill the maniac who killed your mother in cold blood? You're such a horrible boy, Chibi, you practically deserved to see your mother decapitated in front of you!


*bleep* off, Sirius. Just *bleep* off. You're nothing but a heartless, holier-than-thou *bleep* who gives zero *bleep*s about people other than yourself and are only interested in doing "the right thing" to convince yourself you're better than anyone else and that they're the monsters for not heaping praise on your idiotic quest of being self-appointed canine Jesus.

Now please go die in a ditch somewhere. You don't even deserve an honorable death at this point.

Edit: cleaned up the language a bit, in hindsight that was way filthier than necessary.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

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Diverting people from revenge kills is a pretty common theme in manga and fiction, I know you don't like his character but that seems like a bit of an overreaction.

I'm kind of concerned Kurotora's nephews gravesite floods annually. Were those bodies ever buried? XD
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Digsu »

:unsai:
Kasi wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:41 am Diverting people from revenge kills is a pretty common theme in manga and fiction, I know you don't like his character but that seems like a bit of an overreaction.

I'm kind of concerned Kurotora's nephews gravesite floods annually. Were those bodies ever buried? XD
Yeah, I may have overreacted a bit there, sorry. But, in my opinion, so did Sirius - instead of calmly telling Chibi to not seek revenge, he started screaming at him in a language he doesn't understand. For a supposed peacemaker his diplomatic skills still need a lot of work.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

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Digsu wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:50 am :unsai:
Kasi wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:41 am Diverting people from revenge kills is a pretty common theme in manga and fiction, I know you don't like his character but that seems like a bit of an overreaction.

I'm kind of concerned Kurotora's nephews gravesite floods annually. Were those bodies ever buried? XD
Yeah, I may have overreacted a bit there, sorry. But, in my opinion, so did Sirius - instead of calmly telling Chibi to not seek revenge, he started screaming at him in a language he doesn't understand. For a supposed peacemaker his diplomatic skills still need a lot of work.
I agree that Sirius overreacted. I can understand he might have panicked upon hearing Chibi say he wants revenge (a line of revenge that Sirius supposedly wants to put a stop to) but instead of yelling at him in Dog language, he needed to maturely address to Chibi why revenge may not be the best answer.

Additonally though I really don't want Chibi to jjust forgive Monsoon and forget about what he did. I really don't want that to happen.

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Kasi wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:41 am I'm kind of concerned Kurotora's nephews gravesite floods annually. Were those bodies ever buried? XD
My thoughts exactly! XD His poor nephews. Though I can't imagine they would bury them now (back when we first saw them in TLW) if they had already been...not buried for so long xD
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Kasi »

Yeah that's fair enough.

I wonder if we'll actually get to see more of this from Chibi now that he's gone into hibernation and the Ouu army are already preparing the attack on Monsoon. Does that mean the Ouu army will fail? Or will Chibi's arc just sort of fade away? I would like to see him grow much bigger and face Monsoon himself.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

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Kasi wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:57 am Yeah that's fair enough.

I wonder if we'll actually get to see more of this from Chibi now that he's gone into hibernation and the Ouu army are already preparing the attack on Monsoon. Does that mean the Ouu army will fail? Or will Chibi's arc just sort of fade away? I would like to see him grow much bigger and face Monsoon himself.
I wondered that too. They seem to have put emphasis on the fact that they'll pick Chibi up when Spring comes around, and that he'll be grown up. I want to say that they wouldn't be saying things like that had it no meaning to the story, but then again it's Yoshi and with him sometimes the writing can fall flat and things shouldn't always be looked into so deeply with him.

I have to wonder though what would become of Chibi should, lets say, Monsoon is redeemed, and the army leaves Monsoon alone after that. Would Chibi be angry that no one wants to fight him anymore and still want to get back at him for killing his mother? As you mentioned, would he grow bigger and want to face Monsoon himself? I'd like to see where this goes, without having Chibi just forgive him for it.
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