Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Dragon » Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:44 pm

Doragon is pretty right.
I used to like Orion in his pup form. He was young, so I thought his hasty behavior could be blamed on not learning enough yet and being raised by Izou and his bros, who basically never disciplined the behavior. And then I thought about the connection Orion has with his Constellation. A hunter who never loses sight of his target. That's really cool and fits his behavior as well....
In GDWO, we see Orion has some morals, like wanting to help Yamabiko and not hating him for being on the enemy side. Yeah, Orion can still be rude to friends like Bon, but he would still save them.

Fastforward to TLW, and Orion's writing becomes.... ruined. He ONLY wants to fight and if things don't go his way, he throws a tantrum. He purposely hurt his brother (despite never doing this in GDWO even though sirius was against him here too and aggressively), tries hurting Bon during training, tries killing a baby bear ally for the sake of training, etc. There's a lot he's done that shows zero compassion behind his hastiness now as an adult compared to when he was a kid.

I really wanted to keep liking Orion, but he became really unlikeable in TLW :/ It sucks.
It's one thing if he was purposely made to be less compassionate, but we had no build up. I don't think it was a very genuine development, just one that was forced upon him, despite the friendly environment he was in while growing up in the Akame mountain.. or was it falls. I forget.

I'm all for good guys turning bad, but it has to feel more deserved than suddenly. The way Orion is shown in TLW is kinda just plain douchey than a tough, cool but dark hero XD;;
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by YamaDora » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:45 pm

Dragon wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:44 pm
I used to like Orion in his pup form. He was young, so I thought his hasty behavior could be blamed on not learning enough yet and being raised by Izou and his bros, who basically never disciplined the behavior. And then I thought about the connection Orion has with his Constellation. A hunter who never loses sight of his target. That's really cool and fits his behavior as well....
In GDWO, we see Orion has some morals, like wanting to help Yamabiko and not hating him for being on the enemy side. Yeah, Orion can still be rude to friends like Bon, but he would still save them.
I agree with you. Orion at the beginning of GDWO had a very unique and interesting character portrayal by Takahashi's standards, and I like how it was pointed out that his sense of justice was shaped by the violent actions of Izou and his brothers - that was very consistent and interesting to see.
...but in later GDWO volumes it becomes very repetitive when he just refuses to listen anyone and runs off any given opportunity. And he stayed this way the whole duration of TLW.

The whole "Orion the hunter" thing was forgotten quickly, though. IIRC it was mentioned last time when he fights the one random guy in the river and drowns him.

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Leomonade » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:52 pm

I think their upbringing in GDWO really shows in TLW.
Orion was taken in by Izou and later the survivors of the Ohu army. All the adult were mostly interested in winning the war and destroying their enemies. Orion was taught how to fight but pretty much nothing else. The Ohu army concentrated on how to kill their enemies, not raising a child.
Sirius, on the other hand, had to grow up a strong mind to survive in the Kamakiri pack. He would have crumbled under the constant beatings and mean comments if he hadn't become overly confident.
Rigel was the only one who had a mature and balanced adult training him. Rigel might have been a little hot-headed when emotional but he was still smart and fair. He knows how to kill and doesn't forgive murderers but he also doesn't flaunt about his skills. And can we just point out that Rigel was the only one interested in finding his friends and family, and fighting and winning a war was not something he even considered before reuniting with everyone? XD

So in TLW, we got:
Sirius who is ridiculously stubborn, dismissive of other's opinions and doesn't know how to communicate well with others.
Orion who is an aggressive powerhouse with questionable mental health status. (how many times did we see Orion break down in this series??)
Rigel who seems to be the only brother willing to listen what other's have to say.. if only he wasn't so submissive with his older siblings, he'd be the voice of reason.

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Shining Sirius » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:16 pm

And what about that time Gin dangled him off a fecking cliff? :derpgin:
Let's not forget Joe's (another dog with debatable mental health status) influence on Orion in his childhood;
What I mean is; here's a dog that was given up for adoption, separated from his brother and foster father, lost his wife and several of his children to a bear, and what is the last thing he tells his very young nephew? "Don't give in to anyone who bullies you." Nothing like, for example; 'always love your family' or 'always keep your family close'. No, he just flats-out tells him to fulfil something that he never had any trouble with in the first place (or, at least it's never evidenced that Orion had issues with being bullied).
Agreeing too with Dragon and Doragon - I admittedly enjoyed Orion in GDW:O as a refreshing change from a pacifist lead character such as Gin or Weed and I loved the relationship he had with Sirius, where he cared very little that Sirius' opinions were different or that he was being violent through the influence of the Kamakiri brothers. No, he was just happy to know his brother was alive after the eruption and wanted to keep him safe (seriously, that panel in GDW:O where Orion bumps into Sirius and calls him a knucklehead gets me every time). While he did do some seriously bratty things in that manga, he didn't really do anything that could solely be considered evil. However, I am prepared to cite that the same cannot be said for his character in TLW. There are times when he honestly just feels like a monster, akin to what Monsoon was like in the beginning. There's a pretty vilifying list of all the things he's done... and that is disappointing, because all of what I have said is coming from someone who has wanted time after time to actually like Orion in TLW... it just can't be done.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Kaiken » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:48 pm

Doragon wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:02 pm
Kaiken wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:20 pm
So many Orion hating people... ;; I still love him, mainly BECAUSE he's a protagonist that's not afraid to fight and give enemies what they deserve, unlike Weed who figuratively hugs psychopath Hougen or Gin who lets a cannibal continue on to make new cannibal groups.
The hate towards Orion comes from the fact that he is a toxic person and extremely violent on top of that. He basically has all the traits to be a villain: he has no sympathy over anyone and all he wants to do is kill his enemies, no matter of the situation. You can like him all you want, but he isn't good and righteous.
At this point I've read almost whole GDWO and whenever I think Orion there, the first thing that comes in my mind is him running after someone (who Orion is trying to fight and kill ) and not listening anyone else (even when Orion's actions are ruining the plans of the good guys). That happens way too often in GDWO.

Weed's pacifist policy is fairly consistent, and evolves through GDW: Weed lets Sniper die when it seems that there's no way to change his mind, and lets Hougen go when he's basically lost everything - his army, his strength, his brother, everything. The victory over Hougen is more of a moral victory than anything: Weed's point is that if they kill him, they're no better than he is. Even Gin trying to "kill" Hougen was to test if Weed had what was required to be a leader: not just strength (which he proved to have by defeating Hougen) but also a righteous heart.

In all stories (99,9%) what defines villain is that he/she is self-centered, while the good guy is not. Orion does care about his friends. He HAS friends.

I agree, but Hougen, after being spared, just went for revenge once again. Was it really wise to let him go?
Weed had no choice with Sniper, because he was hanging from his neck. It's either him or Sniper. Besides, he had already spared Sniper, before he attacked.

''all he wants to do is kill''? Well, I think that would be a bad writing here that made it seem that way, not necessary his exact personality.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Atha » Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:06 am

Aside from the Orion and Sirius characterization, I feel that in the entire TLW, let alone in the fights, no other dog than Orion and Sirius had any development and focus. Like, in GNG, and GDW, most side characters did something memorable.

Akatora, John, Benzikura, Akame, Kurojaki, Riki, Cross, Terry, Hakuro, Jerome, Kyoushiro, Tesshin, Toube, Sniper, Yukimura, Maxim... them and many more all had their own character arcs and shining moments. In TLW who did anything unique that sets them apart from the rest, aside from Hiro dying for Gin at the very beginning? Even Rigel and Bella are cast aside, while the 'new gen' hardly do anything but fail so Orion can look cooler and the old gen just keeps going to the vet.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Kasi » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:23 am

I'm not an Orion fan, but I understand why some people like him, and there's nothing wrong with liking a character with some negative traits too.

I'm just glad I'm not the only one who noticed how selfishly he starts to act in the later half of GDWO XD I do think he had a cute side to him in the beginning, but the further I get into GDWO... for Pete's sake Orion, stop running off on your own and ruining all the plans! XD
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Dragon » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:29 am

Atha wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:06 am
Aside from the Orion and Sirius characterization, I feel that in the entire TLW, let alone in the fights, no other dog than Orion and Sirius had any development and focus. Like, in GNG, and GDW, most side characters did something memorable.

Akatora, John, Benzikura, Akame, Kurojaki, Riki, Cross, Terry, Hakuro, Jerome, Kyoushiro, Tesshin, Toube, Sniper, Yukimura, Maxim... them and many more all had their own character arcs and shining moments. In TLW who did anything unique that sets them apart from the rest, aside from Hiro dying for Gin at the very beginning? Even Rigel and Bella are cast aside, while the 'new gen' hardly do anything but fail so Orion can look cooler and the old gen just keeps going to the vet.
I feel like this upsets me more than anything. That's what made us grow closer to characters other than the protagonist in the past series.
This is a huge time skip where all the kids grow up, some old vets are even older, some should have kids of their own, etc. We could have seen more of anyone, but the most we got was Jerome hallucinating about Lydia. I liked that a lot, because I love learning about more than just the protagonist... but then Jerome was kinda never brought up much again unless it's to prove a point to Sirius.
Why couldn't we learn Yamabiko's personality more since he's been away, or Rigel's feelings about all this mess, or Bob. Anyone! Q_Q I'm desperate OTL

I wouldn't even mind if someone else made a fanmade version of this arc. I'd probably read it just to feel satisfied lol Maybe in the headcanon or AU thread, people could say some ideas XD


But on the topic of Orion, I agree, Kasi. I'm happy to see fans of all characters, negative or positive. Variety is epic. I just wanted to explain why I personally have stopped caring for him. He still has a unique, cool thing to him so to like him isn't too strange to me.
Heck, I can even see now how Sirius can be liked. Despite all his craziness this arc, you have to respect his passion to keep pushing what he believes lol
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Raki » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:00 am

I probably missed this one but does Reika know that Hiro's dead? :O

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Kaiken » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:09 am

Raki wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:00 am
I probably missed this one but does Reika know that Hiro's dead? :O

Nope! :upsidedown:
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Hyzenthlay Rose » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:16 am

I'm still pissed off that Hiro died and his family just got shoved out of the story and didn't even get to find out about Hiro's death.

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Raki » Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:28 am

Kaiken wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:09 am
Raki wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:00 am
I probably missed this one but does Reika know that Hiro's dead? :O

Nope! :upsidedown: Not on-screen at least.
Meh that's so sad. >__>

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Rusty » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:33 pm

We also never found out what happened to Bella or Koyuki. She will never know what happened to her son. It's so sad we get such a rushed and haphazard ending :/
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Digsu » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:45 pm

Rusty wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:33 pm
We also never found out what happened to Bella or Koyuki. She will never know what happened to her son. It's so sad we get such a rushed and haphazard ending :/
tbh I wonder if they'd have the heart to tell them what really happened or if they'd just vaguely tell them that Sirius was killed by Monsoon, leaving out the whole "Orion became a bloodthirsty monster, Sirius betrayed his friends and family to side with our sworn enemy, and Weed banished his own son from the Paradise" thing.

Hey, Maxim lied to his own father about Victor being a traitorous asshole and told him that his daughter was dead with a straight face, anything's possible.



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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Raki » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:56 pm

Digsu wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:45 pm
Rusty wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:33 pm
We also never found out what happened to Bella or Koyuki. She will never know what happened to her son. It's so sad we get such a rushed and haphazard ending :/
tbh I wonder if they'd have the heart to tell them what really happened or if they'd just vaguely tell them that Sirius was killed by Monsoon, leaving out the whole "Orion became a bloodthirsty monster, Sirius betrayed his friends and family to side with our sworn enemy, and Weed banished his own son from the Paradise" thing.

Hey, Maxim lied to his own father about Victor being a traitorous asshole and told him that his daughter was dead with a straight face, anything's possible.
That's what I think too. There's no extra pages in vol 22? I hope that Yoshi can make more works of this. A bit more detailed but we'll never know.

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Kaiken » Sat Feb 16, 2019 12:43 am

Raki wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:28 am
Kaiken wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:09 am
Raki wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 11:00 am
I probably missed this one but does Reika know that Hiro's dead? :O

Nope! :upsidedown:
Meh that's so sad. >__>

Yeah, it would have been so cool to see his sons' reaction! :(
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Rusty » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:32 am

Raki wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:56 pm
Digsu wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:45 pm
Rusty wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:33 pm
We also never found out what happened to Bella or Koyuki. She will never know what happened to her son. It's so sad we get such a rushed and haphazard ending :/
tbh I wonder if they'd have the heart to tell them what really happened or if they'd just vaguely tell them that Sirius was killed by Monsoon, leaving out the whole "Orion became a bloodthirsty monster, Sirius betrayed his friends and family to side with our sworn enemy, and Weed banished his own son from the Paradise" thing.

Hey, Maxim lied to his own father about Victor being a traitorous asshole and told him that his daughter was dead with a straight face, anything's possible.
That's what I think too. There's no extra pages in vol 22? I hope that Yoshi can make more works of this. A bit more detailed but we'll never know.
From what we know there's no extra pages in the last volume. God even just a few pages of the mothers/wives being informed would at least round off the story, maybe a shot of them heading back to Ohu after the battle. Bleeeh.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Uru » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:14 am

Dragon wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:44 pm
Doragon is pretty right.
I used to like Orion in his pup form. He was young, so I thought his hasty behavior could be blamed on not learning enough yet and being raised by Izou and his bros, who basically never disciplined the behavior. And then I thought about the connection Orion has with his Constellation. A hunter who never loses sight of his target. That's really cool and fits his behavior as well....
In GDWO, we see Orion has some morals, like wanting to help Yamabiko and not hating him for being on the enemy side. Yeah, Orion can still be rude to friends like Bon, but he would still save them.

Fastforward to TLW, and Orion's writing becomes.... ruined. He ONLY wants to fight and if things don't go his way, he throws a tantrum. He purposely hurt his brother (despite never doing this in GDWO even though sirius was against him here too and aggressively), tries hurting Bon during training, tries killing a baby bear ally for the sake of training, etc. There's a lot he's done that shows zero compassion behind his hastiness now as an adult compared to when he was a kid.
This!

I also don't like that Orion is compared to Riki as they have nothing in common. Orion doesn't care for his (=Weed's) army: after the defeating Monsoon Orion wants to chase after the Monsoon and Akame practically forces him not to as there is lot of injured soldiers. And after the dogs finally leave for war, Orion runs too fast and leaves the whole army behind and tries to force them to run when they are tried. After he had rested few hours! If I remember correctly, Orion also "ruined" the moment after the dogs had won against bears first time? He told everyone to stop celebrating etc.

This would be interesting if Orion would grow as a chacter and get better, but he doesn't. He is only good at fighting and nothing else. It also would be interesting if other characters would react to this properly and make Orion obey them or pick him a role in battle that would suit him.

With Gin and Weed their raise to leader was interesting: Gin started as a soldier but slowly gained everyone's trust and became the new leader. Weed was forced to be leader and he did his best: he did mistakes, but always chose the option that would help others and ignored things that he personally would have wanted.

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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Gingastar » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:43 am

I think it would have been interesting if maybe the characters in the story (instead of just the narrator) compared Orion to Riki, and from there we got development about Orion himself feeling like he was in Riki’s shadow (or in turn, tried too hard to be like him) and not wanting to be compared to anyone, but simply wanted to be himself (whether or not “himself” is a good guy or not).

We have Orion compared to Riki shoved down our throats and it feels so weird to see that be said but... just have it be so untrue? Like something more should have been done with such a claim.
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Re: Ginga: The Last Wars SPOILER THREAD

Post by Troll Berserker » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:53 am

I also dislike Orion being compared to Riki - it doesn't make much sense except having red fur, hating bears and being a good fighter. Wasn't Yukimura compared to Riki too because of his red fur?
I'm not 100% sure but I think it was mentioned that red furred akitas are hot heads. excuse me, but I didn't feel that with Riki. Adult Riki was loyal and determined but he was rather calm and analytic instead of charging stupidly into everything. Pup Riki was kind. He was also determined and wanted to prove himself but he also wanted to help others. He cared about his owners and his familly, he was never a rude and selfish brat like Orion.
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