Orion vs Sirius

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Orion vs Sirius

Post by Arano »

The official topic where you can discuss everything about Orion and Sirius' character and role in the TLW manga so far.

Eg:
Which character are you backing; who's side do you think should ultimately win the war and why?
Who would you rather see as the Supreme Commander after Weed?
What do you like or hate about either character?
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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Hmm, it's a really hard question to answer. I can see where both characters are coming from. I think Orion has the physical strength advantage, but they seem tied for mental strength. They both have a strong will and take their beliefs seriously, although Sirius seems more accepting of others opinions and ideas where Orion is stubborn and often runs away/starts fights over disagreements - which would be bad in a leader. Sirius understands Orion's point of view, and the others frustrations too; but he chooses his own path because he feels it will lead to peace without conflict. Orion refuses to accept Sirius' point of view, and he is choosing conflict as a means of creating peace despite the risk of life loss. I sometimes wonder if Orion is so immature and hot-headed with Sirius because he is the oldest, and he's jealous?

Overall, I have to say Sirius. In a perfect scenario, I would love to see them both lead, as a team.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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That's a tough one for me too, because they both have a ton of flaws. While that makes them interesting characters, I'm not sure I fully support either. I like Sirius far better than I like Orion but at the same time I think that Sirius has a few personality traits that would prevent him from being an effective leader. They're both way too stubborn and I don't think either of them knows really how to respect anyone else's opinion. That's not good for a potential successor for Weed. In terms of who should inherit his position, I still say Rigel. It'll never happen, but still...

If I HAD to choose between the two of them though (in terms of who I side with more), I choose Sirius reluctantly because I like what he's trying to do. He's being naive and putting people in danger, but at least he's trying. Orion's just a thug. Always has been. He's too militant to be leader of Ohu in my opinion and it blows my mind how certain older characters who supported Weed in GDW are now whole-heartedly supporting Orion despite all the crap he's pulled thus far.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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I'm going to agree with Tolkien that a true leader values peace rather than war, and is identified by their ability to heal rather than fight.

However, Sirius has been very insensitive towards dogs who have suffered (like Bob) and , like Weed, starts yelling at anyone who as much as voices an opposing view (Zion, Chibi) and those aren't great leader qualities.

Even so, Orion is definitely no leader material, no matter how much Yoshi tells us that he's Riki v2.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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I'll never understand why people don't see Orion as leader. I think he's a perfect leader material.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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Kaiken wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:48 pm I'll never understand why people don't see Orion as leader. I think he's a perfect leader material.
Because he never consider others whenever he does something, he's very hotheaded and has caused problems many times because he rushes into things.

Unless Orion cools down when he gets older I can't see him becoming a good leader.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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Orion has the right temperament and power to be a fighter who charges the biggest threats headfirst. But he's completely unsuited to being a leader, let alone the supreme leader. A leader's duties go way beyond being fearless and strong in battle.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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Kaiken wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:48 pm I'll never understand why people don't see Orion as leader. I think he's a perfect leader material.
For me, it's because of his personality. In terms of strength/power, he absolutely has what it takes to lead a pack. But like Atha said, that's not all there is to being a leader. Leaders need to lead by example. Good ones need to be fair and take others' viewpoints into consideration when making their decisions. Orion's problem is that he doesn't do that. He's very arrogant and doesn't listen to others when he does things. He's rushed into situations multiple times and has severely endangered his own friends almost every one of those times.

He also is very combative and has berated his own packmates in front of the whole pack in at least 2 or 3 different scenes (Sirius, Kyoushiro, Cross, etc.). That personality trait is not at all something that leaders should have. He's one of the best warriors the Ohu Army has without question. I can absolutely see why some people like him (I won't begrudge them that). But for me (and in terms of the morals the Ginga universe established in GDW), he's not leader material.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

Post by Kaiken »

Right, leader has to be a prime example, and where's better example that Orion's vigor and energy?
How is he selfish? He risked his own life for the sake of Izou's brothers and to help that one lady with her pups!
Hot-headed and reckless, yeah, but just as much as John in GNG, but John got to successfully lead a massive army of 800 (if I remember right).
Only thing Orion doesn't have in my opinion is that ''ok i let u go to die from blood loss'' justice/mercy thing Weed did on Hougen & Masamune and Gin on Kurojaki.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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Kaiken wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:03 pm Right, leader has to be a prime example, and where's better example that Orion's vigor and energy?
There's no shortage for vigor and energy in the Ohu army, being hotblooded to the extreme is a trait common among the troops. George, Kurotora, Kyoushiro, Gennai, Akakama... they'll all jump onto a T-rex with no regard for their own lives. But that doesn't make them automatically good leaders.

As for selfishness, he dramatically haul himself into a cliff when upset and worry everyone, berate his followers when they can't keep up or disagree, constantly ignore everyone and jump ahead... such actions show a self-centered person who's not fit to stay calm to ground his troops when they're falling apart.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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Atha wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:34 pm
Kaiken wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:03 pm Right, leader has to be a prime example, and where's better example that Orion's vigor and energy?
There's no shortage for vigor and energy in the Ohu army, being hotblooded to the extreme is a trait common among the troops. George, Kurotora, Kyoushiro, Gennai, Akakama... they'll all jump onto a T-rex with no regard for their own lives. But that doesn't make them automatically good leaders.

As for selfishness, he dramatically haul himself into a cliff when upset and worry everyone, berate his followers when they can't keep up or disagree, constantly ignore everyone and jump ahead... such actions show a self-centered person who's not fit to stay calm to ground his troops when they're falling apart.

Those mentioned are all officers - i.e. leading personnel - the ones who need energy and confidence boost are the troops, like when they were terrified in front of Akakabuto before Gin started howling, like when they were shocked upon hearing Hougen's army outnumbers theirs or when the gathered army started to disperse without Weed as head figure just before launch for Hokkaidou.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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Kaiken wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:45 pm
Atha wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:34 pm
Kaiken wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:03 pm Right, leader has to be a prime example, and where's better example that Orion's vigor and energy?
There's no shortage for vigor and energy in the Ohu army, being hotblooded to the extreme is a trait common among the troops. George, Kurotora, Kyoushiro, Gennai, Akakama... they'll all jump onto a T-rex with no regard for their own lives. But that doesn't make them automatically good leaders.

As for selfishness, he dramatically haul himself into a cliff when upset and worry everyone, berate his followers when they can't keep up or disagree, constantly ignore everyone and jump ahead... such actions show a self-centered person who's not fit to stay calm to ground his troops when they're falling apart.
Those mentioned are all officers - i.e. leading personnel - the ones who need energy and confidence boost are the troops, like when they were terrified in front of Akakabuto before Gin started howling, like when they were shocked upon hearing Hougen's army outnumbers theirs or when the gathered army started to disperse without Weed as head figure just before launch for Hokkaidou.
Actually, at this list only Kyoshiro and Akakama have been leaders. Gennai was underling of Tenma and did everything he was told to. George is actually know'n as "lonely George" as he didn't belong to any group and Kurotora only worked with his brothers. Even with his own children & nephews he wasn't the leader. Also, Akakama was terrible leader and only relied on his strength. At the battle against war dogs, Kyoshiro wasn't chosen as leader, but instead Rocket was.

Orion is strong warrior, but not leader material. He doesn't listen the advice of the others. He risk his own and other dogs lives unneccesary. He is also cruel and is fine with torturing enemies or killing enemies that are no longer able to fight back. If I were to compare Orion to some other character, it would be Hougen.

Orion might have change to be leader, but he hasn't matured at all during the story and I think that's huge problem.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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Uru wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:21 pm Orion is strong warrior, but not leader material. He doesn't listen the advice of the others. He risk his own and other dogs lives unneccesary. He is also cruel and is fine with torturing enemies or killing enemies that are no longer able to fight back. If I were to compare Orion to some other character, it would be Hougen.

Orion might have change to be leader, but he hasn't matured at all during the story and I think that's huge problem.
THANK YOU.

I wrote this in the last wars topic then deleted it quickly thinking I'd offend the Orion fans haha, I'm so glad someone else said it first XD I completely agree. Orion has more villain traits than hero, and the villain that comes to mind is definitely Hougen. They would get along great.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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Arano wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:04 pm
Uru wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:21 pm Orion is strong warrior, but not leader material. He doesn't listen the advice of the others. He risk his own and other dogs lives unneccesary. He is also cruel and is fine with torturing enemies or killing enemies that are no longer able to fight back. If I were to compare Orion to some other character, it would be Hougen.

Orion might have change to be leader, but he hasn't matured at all during the story and I think that's huge problem.
THANK YOU.

I wrote this in the last wars topic then deleted it quickly thinking I'd offend the Orion fans haha, I'm so glad someone else said it first XD I completely agree. Orion has more villain traits than hero, and the villain that comes to mind is definitely Hougen. They would get along great.
As an Orion fan I completely agree. And I think this is why I enjoy Orion's character, in a way.

Do I agree with his words and actions? Absolutely not. But there's just something about a son of the "great bear hound family!!" that acts like a completely disrespect fool that I enjoy seeing, it's really different from the usually respectful and undoubtedly heroic characters we had with Gin and Weed.

That saying I also completely agree in that Orion is in no way leader material. He's strong physically, but absolutely lacks in mental and emotional strength, and has very questionable morals and respect for those around him. There is much more than physical strength needed in a leader role.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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Uru wrote: Sun Dec 09, 2018 10:21 pm
Kaiken wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:45 pm
Atha wrote: Fri Dec 07, 2018 10:34 pm

There's no shortage for vigor and energy in the Ohu army, being hotblooded to the extreme is a trait common among the troops. George, Kurotora, Kyoushiro, Gennai, Akakama... they'll all jump onto a T-rex with no regard for their own lives. But that doesn't make them automatically good leaders.

As for selfishness, he dramatically haul himself into a cliff when upset and worry everyone, berate his followers when they can't keep up or disagree, constantly ignore everyone and jump ahead... such actions show a self-centered person who's not fit to stay calm to ground his troops when they're falling apart.
Those mentioned are all officers - i.e. leading personnel - the ones who need energy and confidence boost are the troops, like when they were terrified in front of Akakabuto before Gin started howling, like when they were shocked upon hearing Hougen's army outnumbers theirs or when the gathered army started to disperse without Weed as head figure just before launch for Hokkaidou.
Actually, at this list only Kyoshiro and Akakama have been leaders. Gennai was underling of Tenma and did everything he was told to. George is actually know'n as "lonely George" as he didn't belong to any group and Kurotora only worked with his brothers. Even with his own children & nephews he wasn't the leader. Also, Akakama was terrible leader and only relied on his strength. At the battle against war dogs, Kyoshiro wasn't chosen as leader, but instead Rocket was.

Orion is strong warrior, but not leader material. He doesn't listen the advice of the others. He risk his own and other dogs lives unneccesary. He is also cruel and is fine with torturing enemies or killing enemies that are no longer able to fight back. If I were to compare Orion to some other character, it would be Hougen.

Orion might have change to be leader, but he hasn't matured at all during the story and I think that's huge problem.


Uuh, actually Kuro was a leader between his family members in GDW...
Either way, all the mentioned dogs might not have been leader-leaders in their early lifes, but they still were lower or higher rank officers after joining the Ohu army. I'd say some might be non-commissioned officers, but officers nevertheless. So, higher in rank.
Akakama's bad leadership, much like Kamakiri's, came from wasting his troops. Same goes for Hougen and other enemies except for Russians and Masamune.

He's got every single right to risk his life, that's why it's his life and isn't that considered heroic in their culture?
He did listen to Unsai, Akame, Weed, Tesshin, Izou and Gin...
Wait what? Torture? When did that happen? Example please?
Killing enemies that are so horribly beaten they no longer can fight back... I'd say a quick execution is far better than Weed's leaving them to die from blood loss or getting eaten alive by vermin. Remember how Masamune was BEGGING for a soldier's mercy? Denying that sounds awfully lot like torture to me...
Nah, I don't see how Orion could be anything close to Hougen (he's psychopath, that also includes tactical planning, which is one thing Orion is not so good at). If you really wish to compare him to villain, then be it Masamune, but actually he's written to be exactly Yukimura v.2, and, well, Mura did successfully lead a nice bit of army for years.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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Kaiken wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:19 pm Uuh, actually Kuro was a leader between his family members in GDW...
Either way, all the mentioned dogs might not have been leader-leaders in their early lifes, but they still were lower or higher rank officers after joining the Ohu army. I'd say some might be non-commissioned officers, but officers nevertheless. So, higher in rank.
Akakama's bad leadership, much like Kamakiri's, came from wasting his troops. Same goes for Hougen and other enemies except for Russians and Masamune.

He's got every single right to risk his life, that's why it's his life and isn't that considered heroic in their culture?
He did listen to Unsai, Akame, Weed, Tesshin, Izou and Gin...
Wait what? Torture? When did that happen? Example please?
Killing enemies that are so horribly beaten they no longer can fight back... I'd say a quick execution is far better than Weed's leaving them to die from blood loss or getting eaten alive by vermin. Remember how Masamune was BEGGING for a soldier's mercy? Denying that sounds awfully lot like torture to me...
Nah, I don't see how Orion could be anything close to Hougen (he's psychopath, that also includes tactical planning, which is one thing Orion is not so good at). If you really wish to compare him to villain, then be it Masamune, but actually he's written to be exactly Yukimura v.2, and, well, Mura did successfully lead a nice bit of army for years.
Kuro was the oldest, but the kids didn't really obey him. Also, if you are head of your family, it doesn't mean you are leader.

Can you tell me where it is mentioned, that they are the have commanding role in Ouu army? They are good fighters and friends of Weed (+ main characters in story), but not leaders. If friends of Weed were counted as leaders, GB and Sasuke would be leaders too. In general, the dogs in GDW don't have real, permanent ranks. There is leader and his close friends, but they are not automatically leaders.
When did Akakama waste his troops? Hougen & Kamakiri did kill they troops for fun, but I dont think Akakama ever did that. He was rude, aggressive and didn't listen - and due to this was bad leader, like Orion too.

Example of Orion killing opponent who can't fight back: Kamakiri brothers. Orion's troop had pinned them down and Orion hit them with Battouga. I think this also could be counted as torture as brothers had to watch the other ones being killed. Scene was very similar to death of John.
Example of Orion torturing opponent: In battle against Kurokirimaru (?) Bon says that "it looks fun" (when Orion keeps hitting his enemy) and asks if he can do it too. Orion is fine for Bon taking turns attacking enemy who can no longer fight back properly.
Orion in general likes to hurt his enemies even when it's clear that he has won.

None of the dogs Weed has shown mercy had died from blood loss or similar. They have all run away and could have survived, but were usually attacked by some other enemy or their own comrade. Masamune wasn't badly injured and he only wanted to die because he no longer could live as a commander. Hurt ego is not really good reason to kill anyone.

Orion is nothing like Yukimura. Yukimura wanted revenge, but he never was out of control like Orion. If Yukimura would have been like Orion, Yukimura would have killed Weed and his companions when they disagreed with him. Orion was willing to attack his own brother when they had argument, so it's easy to think that he would have killed few strangers. Yukimura also wasn't the leader of the pack, his father was. Of course, after his injury Yukimura did all the work and the pack obeyd him, but that was half a year/under a year, not years.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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That scene with Orion, Bon and Yamabiko attacking a defeated Kurokirimaru was the scene where I felt you could really see the personalities of adult Orion Vs Sirius come through really clear. Orion and Bon seemed to be enjoy attacking Kurokiri, Bon laughing around that castrating him should kill him. Sirius was quite angry and pushed Bon away saying that Kurokiri was already defeated and Orion argued he was getting in the way.

I use to think watching Izou kill Masamune's soldiers ruthlessly helped shape part of who Orion is, but he had already drowned a dog in the second chapter and didn't seem to think much of it. Honestly I think Orion leans towards sociopath, I'm not fond of him at all. He had some cute traits in the start of GDWO, but even as that progresses, he's become more like his TLW incarnation.

I'm a Sirius person. I don't think he's sane, I think his experience with the Kama brothers distorted his sense of reality, but at least he works for a better future.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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Uru wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 6:00 am
Kaiken wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:19 pm Uuh, actually Kuro was a leader between his family members in GDW...
Either way, all the mentioned dogs might not have been leader-leaders in their early lifes, but they still were lower or higher rank officers after joining the Ohu army. I'd say some might be non-commissioned officers, but officers nevertheless. So, higher in rank.
Akakama's bad leadership, much like Kamakiri's, came from wasting his troops. Same goes for Hougen and other enemies except for Russians and Masamune.

He's got every single right to risk his life, that's why it's his life and isn't that considered heroic in their culture?
He did listen to Unsai, Akame, Weed, Tesshin, Izou and Gin...
Wait what? Torture? When did that happen? Example please?
Killing enemies that are so horribly beaten they no longer can fight back... I'd say a quick execution is far better than Weed's leaving them to die from blood loss or getting eaten alive by vermin. Remember how Masamune was BEGGING for a soldier's mercy? Denying that sounds awfully lot like torture to me...
Nah, I don't see how Orion could be anything close to Hougen (he's psychopath, that also includes tactical planning, which is one thing Orion is not so good at). If you really wish to compare him to villain, then be it Masamune, but actually he's written to be exactly Yukimura v.2, and, well, Mura did successfully lead a nice bit of army for years.
Kuro was the oldest, but the kids didn't really obey him. Also, if you are head of your family, it doesn't mean you are leader.

Can you tell me where it is mentioned, that they are the have commanding role in Ouu army? They are good fighters and friends of Weed (+ main characters in story), but not leaders. If friends of Weed were counted as leaders, GB and Sasuke would be leaders too. In general, the dogs in GDW don't have real, permanent ranks. There is leader and his close friends, but they are not automatically leaders.
When did Akakama waste his troops? Hougen & Kamakiri did kill they troops for fun, but I dont think Akakama ever did that. He was rude, aggressive and didn't listen - and due to this was bad leader, like Orion too.

Example of Orion killing opponent who can't fight back: Kamakiri brothers. Orion's troop had pinned them down and Orion hit them with Battouga. I think this also could be counted as torture as brothers had to watch the other ones being killed. Scene was very similar to death of John.
Example of Orion torturing opponent: In battle against Kurokirimaru (?) Bon says that "it looks fun" (when Orion keeps hitting his enemy) and asks if he can do it too. Orion is fine for Bon taking turns attacking enemy who can no longer fight back properly.
Orion in general likes to hurt his enemies even when it's clear that he has won.

None of the dogs Weed has shown mercy had died from blood loss or similar. They have all run away and could have survived, but were usually attacked by some other enemy or their own comrade. Masamune wasn't badly injured and he only wanted to die because he no longer could live as a commander. Hurt ego is not really good reason to kill anyone.

Orion is nothing like Yukimura. Yukimura wanted revenge, but he never was out of control like Orion. If Yukimura would have been like Orion, Yukimura would have killed Weed and his companions when they disagreed with him. Orion was willing to attack his own brother when they had argument, so it's easy to think that he would have killed few strangers. Yukimura also wasn't the leader of the pack, his father was. Of course, after his injury Yukimura did all the work and the pack obeyd him, but that was half a year/under a year, not years.


It doesn't? I always thought being head of family means being family leader... He always posed as leader: when Ken and Kage went to meet him, when he and his nephews prepared to face Gemba's army, etc.. oh well.

That's the thing, GB really was considered officer, through Sasuke wasn't. I can't recall quite well, but it definitely was mentioned even several times. I'll post screenshots once I reread the part again.. ^^

Akakama ordered Sirius to kill his subordinate just because he had fractured/broken leg from training. He also abandoned his injured soldiers after battle and claimed to not care about them.

Kamakiri fight was more of a Tesshin's doing really, but ok, it barely counts maybe as argument, through definitely not torture.
Hmm, I don't really recall that Bon scene... Definitely wanna reread it again! Was it translated? Which volume?

Weed left Kamakiri to get eaten alive, Hougen couldn't have survived with cracked skull, and same goes for Masamune. Nobody was pinning him down. He was left unable to walk, laying in his own blood.

There is NO evidence Orion would have killed Sirius. The entire skirmish of brothers was very similar to that of Weed's and Mura's fight. Also, why do you think Orion would want to KILL everyone who just disagrees with him? Nothing like that has ever been said in the series.
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

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Kaiken wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:14 pm It doesn't? I always thought being head of family means being family leader... He always posed as leader: when Ken and Kage went to meet him, when he and his nephews prepared to face Gemba's army, etc.. oh well.

That's the thing, GB really was considered officer, through Sasuke wasn't. I can't recall quite well, but it definitely was mentioned even several times. I'll post screenshots once I reread the part again.. ^^

Akakama ordered Sirius to kill his subordinate just because he had fractured/broken leg from training. He also abandoned his injured soldiers after battle and claimed to not care about them.

Kamakiri fight was more of a Tesshin's doing really, but ok, it barely counts maybe as argument, through definitely not torture.
Hmm, I don't really recall that Bon scene... Definitely wanna reread it again! Was it translated? Which volume?

Weed left Kamakiri to get eaten alive, Hougen couldn't have survived with cracked skull, and same goes for Masamune. Nobody was pinning him down. He was left unable to walk, laying in his own blood.

There is NO evidence Orion would have killed Sirius. The entire skirmish of brothers was very similar to that of Weed's and Mura's fight. Also, why do you think Orion would want to KILL everyone who just disagrees with him? Nothing like that has ever been said in the series.
There is big difference being the leader of army and being head of family.

Most of times when GB is mentioned as officer or similar, is when it's a joke or when they are in trouble and GB starts threatening others with Ouu army. I can't remember if there was any serious moments when he was referred as leader or officer.

That's true, but it's not really a waste. What would Kamakiri do with injured soldiers when he has to swim over sea? But I had forgotten that scene. It's true that he was planning to kill that soldier and probably had done so before.

It's volume 26, it's published in Japanese and Finnish only, I think.

Weed was never around, when Kamakiri died. Ginga dogs have survived worse injuries than Hougen and Hougen was able to walk, start making plans for new war and attack on human, so I think Hougen could have survived. Same with Masamune.

Orion has thrown Sirius with sickle, threatened to cut him with sickle and attacked Sirius with bamboo stick (which Kamakiri managed to stop). If no one would have stopped Orion, he would have hit Sirius with sickle and I think that counts as trying to kill someone. And Sirius didn't do anything. He was just disagreeing with Orion and they were arguing.
Orion has killed few dogs who were against him and he has many times say that he will kill this and that villain even thought he did not know them. Only reason why he haven't killed more is that he hasn't been able to attack all of his enemies.
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Atha
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Re: Orion vs Sirius

Post by Atha »

Uru wrote: Tue Dec 11, 2018 9:54 pm Orion has thrown Sirius with sickle, threatened to cut him with sickle and attacked Sirius with bamboo stick (which Kamakiri managed to stop). If no one would have stopped Orion, he would have hit Sirius with sickle and I think that counts as trying to kill someone. And Sirius didn't do anything. He was just disagreeing with Orion and they were arguing.
Orion has killed few dogs who were against him and he has many times say that he will kill this and that villain even thought he did not know them. Only reason why he haven't killed more is that he hasn't been able to attack all of his enemies.
There's also the fact that Orion immediately decided to use Chibi as practice for his bamboo stick (which is literally torture of a baby animal) and when the others started protesting with their words he lashed out at them (Cross, Kuro, Jerome), he even physically attacked Jerome with his weapon.
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